DNA may not lie

[Kit]

but it doesn't necessarily help with the truth.

I have a Thruline suggestion for my 5g grandfather. Twice now, because I forgot I'd done it years ago, I have disproved that he is my 5g grandfather but I can't prove who IS the father of my 4g grandmother.

However a new match has thrown up a curve ball. The match is a direct descendant, down a male line, of the 5g grandfather. She does not have my 4g grandmother in her tree.

If anyone wants to check my work and tell me if they think I am right, or wrong, please do.

David Simpson (my 3g grandfather) was baptised 1/3/1815 St Peter, Bradford, Yorkshire, father Richard Simpson, cordwainer. Not that it matters but he married Sarah Eastwood 24/9/1843 Keele, Staffordshire.

I believe my Richard married Susannah Wilkinson on 3/9/1810 at St Peter Bradford. Susannah was a spinster.

They had 2 other children John bap 3/7/1811 and Mary 11/12/1812.

I believe my Richard died 1833 in Bradford, I am unsure about Susannah.

Thrulines says Susannah's father is William Speight. There is a Richard Simpson who married a Susananh Speight in 1812 at Campsall York, according to familysearch. This couple, according to FMP, had children Elizabeth 1816, John 1819, Sarah 1821, William 1823, Richard 1826, Maria 1828 and James 1830 all bapt Arksey. That Richard was alive on the 1841 and 1851 census. That Richard is conveniently also a cordwainer.

I have further notes :
FP (FMP typo??) also have a record for a Richard who married a Susannah Lawd, Lowe or Laird, spinster, writing is hard to read in 1811 at Sheffield.

For reasons I decided not to share with myself I thought this couple were not contenders. I can't remember if this Richard was a cordwainer or not. If not that might have been why had I discounted him.

My DNA match says Willim Speight had a son Matthew through which the match is descended.

If anyone wants to play I'd be grateful. I'm off to bed now I've written it out. Hopefully an idea will come overnight.

[Phoenix]

I don't trust the three public trees I find with Susannah Speight, as they seem wildly speculative.

However, you already have people travelling large distances. I don't know that part of the world, nor its geography, but Bradford to Keele looks a fair old trudge, so Richard could have travelled as far as David.

Putting the correct details in my tree has knocked out quite a few "common ancestors".

I suppose the question is, do you or any of your family, share matches with this person?

[kiterunner]

The couple who married in 1812 would likely have had some children before 1816, so maybe if we could find baptisms for those children, we could rule that couple out?

[Kit]

I haven't been able to find any Kate. Unless you count my 3 to my Richard. Then it could work, except they had children before marriage, which I know happens.

Rechecking the thrulines this morning, there is an issue. Another match I know of, who is descended from my David who married Sarah Eastwood, is showing up in a strange way. The woman at Susannah's level on thrulines is private but is coming up as a different person to Susannah, although she is then descended from David.

The match descended from William Speight has no shared matches with me. I'm wondering if it is a mismatch. It is very low cms. I think ancestry just tacked her on as the tree fits.

However another match that is stronger also claims William Speight as Susanna's father. I think I might have to contact her again to see why she thinks that.

My other theory is that William is not the direct line ancestor but a brother to them and William's father is my 6g grandfather. So an unknown female Speight married an unknown Wilkinson. I haven't looked into this though so it could be pure fantasty.

Phoenix I have a few lines move from Yorkshire to Staffordshire, no idea why and it seems to be a lone member on each line. However once they made the move they stayed in a fairly small geographical location. David's father-in-law also made the move but years earlier. He was also from Bradford so maybe David knew him or the Eastwood family prior to his move.

[marquette]

I have only just started to have a look at this, but it prompts me to tell you of my own problem with Sarah Wilford.

Sarah's family was non-conformist and some family trees give her father as Benjamin or William. We know Sarah married John Iliffe in 1816 at Kilsby Northamptonshire. So both Benjamin and William's daughters (bap 1798 and 1800) would have been minors in 1816. There is no notation in the marriage register that she was a minor so we are thinking she WAS over 21 when she married. So it is more likely that she is the daughter of Charles Wilford.

Proving it with DNA is another task, now. Very few Wilford descendants have DNA and enough of a family tree to help with this.

So, with Richard Simpson(s) and his wives - you have tracked them down for baptisms ? I think you need to nail down possible baptisms for Richard, and Susannah (Wilkinson and Speight). In my research, I found that many men did not marry until their late 20s or early 30s, depending on their circumstances and most women seem to have been around 25, rather than 20 or 21. Cordwainers, as tradesmen, don't seem to have married young (still being apprenticed).

Also how old was Susannah when her last child was born - I put the average age at 43, (unless they died in childbirth), which often puts their date of birth back a few years (from married at 21).

What year was Matthew Speight baptised ? Does this correlate to Susannah's dates that you know?

I agree with Kiterunner, 4 years between marriage and first child IS a long gap which you would not expect, given that they then had children for another 15 years.

FreeREG (Bishops Transcripts) says of the marriage of Richard Simpson and Susannah Speight in Campsall, the grooms abode was Arksey. Their child Maria was buried at age 11 in 1840. Also burials in Arksey for Richard in 1858 and Susannah in 1865 (though the burial age puts Richards birth about 1792 and Susannahs as 1789).

Could they have spent a few years in Bradford before moving back to Arksey?

Don't know if this helps at all, but its a place to start. I cant seem to find registers for St Peters Bradford.




Di

[Mary from Italy]

Originally Posted by marquette

I cant seem to find registers for St Peters Bradford.

St Peter's is Bradford Cathedral. The PRs are in Ancestry's West Yorkshire collection.

[Kit]

Thanks for your input Di. Bradford registers are on Ancestry under the West Yorkshire Church of England registers but I have had to search the card catalogue for West Yorkshire to get them to appear lately.

The Richard I believe is mine died in 1833 in Bradford aged 44. I have his baptism as 1785, which means he lost a few years when he died, and for that baptism his father was also Richard. No mother mentioned. That puts his age at 25 when he married.

I have no idea on Susannah's birth or death. I have found a baptism in 1785 in Bradford for a Susannah Wilkinson, father Thomas, but I have no idea if it is her. Given I have no other possible baptisms noted I suspect it was the only baptism that looked reasonable. I also have no idea on her death. There is one in 1847, in Horton Yorkshire but for reasons unknown I have noted I don't think it was her.

I might have to start over for Richard too. I did all this years ago and while I don't doubt myself I didn't make enough notes of my decisions so I don't know why I think what I do.

[Merry]

There is one in 1847, in Horton Yorkshire but for reasons unknown I have noted I don't think it was her.

Perhaps she didn't look right in 1841?

[Kit]

I think so Merry, also Horton is unfamiliar to me.

There is an 1841 entry with a Francis Simpson who I originally thought was her, then I changed my mind and now need to have another look at as I can't decide or not. I don't think the Francis fits in properly with the Francis I have so I need to see if I can find an alternative for him too.

[marquette]

Originally Posted by Kit

I did all this years ago and while I don't doubt myself I didn't make enough notes of my decisions so I don't know why I think what I do.

I know that feeling. I keep promising myself I will make better notes and sources.