Genealogists' Forum - We have branches everywhere!



Go Back   Genealogists' Forum - We have branches everywhere! > Research > Family History General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 26-07-23, 22:39
kiterunner's Avatar
kiterunner kiterunner is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 25,244
Default Who Do You Think You Are - Lesley Manville 27th July

On BBC1 at 9 p.m. and repeated next Tuesday at 11:25 p.m.
__________________
KiteRunner

Family History News updated 3rd Feb
Westminster Electoral Registers 1902-1970 new on Ancestry
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 27-07-23, 16:38
Ann from Sussex's Avatar
Ann from Sussex Ann from Sussex is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,532
Default

She is from Brighton, the same as me so I might find I'm related to her!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 27-07-23, 22:11
ElizabethHerts ElizabethHerts is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 9,307
Default

Wow! Wow! Wow!

I didn't expect so many connections to my family.
No direct ancestors or anything like that, but the parallels were amazing.

To start off with, I have Ayling ancestors from Sussex and I have worked very closely with an Ayling descendant who has collated huge amounts of information about the Aylings and also undertakes a DNA project.
I need to check out the Ayling woman in Lesley Manville's tree.

Secondly, I have numerous Hardings in my tree from Surrey, Sussex and Hampshire.

More importantly, my daughter staying with us (the one interested in family history) and I were yelling "Swing Riots" at the TV as soon as they mentioned Selborne. We know all about them as they spread to Headley, where our ancestor Edward White was the Master of the Workhouse after the incumbent during the Swing Riots. I researched this ages ago, with much help from John Owen Smith, whose wonderful website is still up and running.

If you want to know more about the Swing Riots, this makes interesting reading:
http://www.johnowensmith.co.uk/riot/


Although none of the people mentioned appear to be our ancestors or relatives, the parallels are very close.

I really like Lesley Manville. She was so interested and intelligent concerning the revelations about her family. She is also a brilliant actress. We are really enjoying the second series of "World on Fire".
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 27-07-23, 22:15
ElizabethHerts ElizabethHerts is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 9,307
Default

From John Owen Smith's website:

"Monday Morning, Outside the Vicarage
The next thing we are told is that at seven o'clock on Monday morning Cobbold, as he left the vicarage, observed two or three of his own labourers among a group of 7 or 8 talking together. He then saw Aaron Harding join the men, and when he asked them what they were going to do Harding told him they were going to "turn out old Harrison," and that they must have their wages raised to 12 shillings a week.

Aaron Harding was a 41 year old labourer, widowed the previous year and with nine children aged between two and twenty. He was later described by the vicar as being "desperate and daring". We know from the Poor Book records that three years earlier he was receiving a dole from the parish of 12 shillings a week, made up of seven shillings for his 6 youngest children, 2/6d for his wife and 2/6d for himself, but we do not know what he was receiving at the time of the riot.

The vicar told him that he saw no objection to wages of 12 shillings a week, as he paid at least that sum to his own labourers, and "to some 14 shillings besides giving them in addition a cottage and a garden." Given his general unpopularity within the village, it seems unlikely that this would endear him further to the other employers of labour who had to fund their wage bill from the land, while Cobbold received a substantial sum in tithes from which to pay his expenses.

Bridger's letter says that the farmers had called a meeting a few days before and agreed to "advance the labourers' wages to 2/- a day," in order to prevent the sort of riots in Selborne that were happening elsewhere; however Cowburn himself declares that "the farmers deliberated, but came to no decision."

We deduce that a discussion of some sort between the farmers and labourers of Selborne must have occurred however, for Harding then said to the vicar, "We must have a touch of your tithes." Cobbold first of all seemed to treat this as a joke, stating that if his income was reduced he "could not do the good he was in the habit of doing," and pointing out to Harding that he had been particularly kind to his family, which we assume referred to the time of his bereavement the previous year. Harding was in no mood for compromise however, and said the tithes must be reduced to £300 a year, adding that this was "quite enough and according to our regulation." It is not clear whose regulation he meant, but by implication it probably came from the farmers.

ohn Trimming (25), another of the rioters whose name we know from later committal proceedings, is reported to have added that £4 a week was quite enough for Cobbold, leaving us to wonder which was wrong, his arithmetic or our information.
The vicar must have asked who was going to persuade him to do this, for Harding then told him they had "a large party" and asked him to come and look at them. A contemporary report mentions that "a mob about 300 in number, collected from the surrounding country, had entered Selborne armed with large clubs, etc." Cobbold presumably declined the invitation to view them, and said he would not submit to a reduction in tithes, whereupon Harding remarked that "the farmers have undertaken to raise our wages, and we have undertaken to reduce the tithes."

We assume that the interview ended at this point, for we next hear that at nine o'clock the vicar "saw two flags and a mob of three or four hundred." As well as Aaron Harding he also mentions by name John Cobb who, he says, "was very drunk and took a very violent part," and Robert Holdaway of whom we will hear much more later. They repeated to him their object of raising wages and reducing tithes, then Harding said, "We shall go now and turn out old Harrison first, and then come back to you; stop till we come back, or it will be the worse for you". Part of the mob went off down Gracious Street towards the workhouse "blowing a horn," and about fifty to one hundred others remained near his house, "so that they could watch my motions," as Cobbold later testified."
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 27-07-23, 22:29
ElizabethHerts ElizabethHerts is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 9,307
Default

John Owen Smith did copious amounts of research. I wonder if they used this for the programme.

If you read down the webpage I cited above, you can see he knew what happened to Aaron Harding in Australia, mentioning his two sons Aaron and William.

John Owen Smith helped my mother with her research (she died in 2004) and I had contact with him also.

The marriage of my ancestors Edward White and Sarah Thomason is documented on the website.
The tenure of Edward and Sarah White as Master and Matron of the Workhouse was limited as Sarah became ill from consumption and they had to give up their posts. Edward reverted to his trade as cordwainer and Sarah died in Bramshott at the age of 28, leaving behind three small sons.

Last edited by ElizabethHerts; 28-07-23 at 09:42.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 27-07-23, 22:51
Olde Crone Olde Crone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,833
Default

There was also brief mention of an unusual surname which we are researching right now on here, lol - Crotcher/Crutcher!

I found this episode interesting but with the usual annoyances. Lesley rhapsodised about the use of the word "friend" in the will. In fact this is a common legal word used to describe an unmarried partner and would have been suggested by the solicitor drawing up the will.

I was also a bit irritated by her attitude that Aaron was doing a noble thing by wrecking a house! He would have been well aware of the penalty for that crime, a penalty that would have deprived his children of their only parent. He was very lucky to escape the death penalty. I would like to have known what happened to his children after he was transported.

OC
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 27-07-23, 23:12
kiterunner's Avatar
kiterunner kiterunner is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 25,244
Default

Episode summary:

Lesley Manville grew up in Brighton, the youngest of three sisters. Her mother, Nora Edwards, trained as a dancer, and her father, Ronald Manville, had various jobs including bookmaker and taxi driver. Lesley's maternal grandmother Harriet died when Lesley was 4 and all her other grandparents died before she was born.

Lesley's son Alfie and her sister Diana came to her house to go through some old photos, including one of Ronald and Nora's wedding. Diana said that she remembered Harriet, who left her first husband, taking their children with her, and took in foster children. She said that Harriet and Nora's father were not married to each other.

Nora's birth certificate showed that her parents were James Arthur Edwards and Harriet Barton, nee Ayling. Diana and Lesley knew that Harriet had three children by her first husband: Winifred, Wilfred, and Peggy Barton.

Harriet went to Brighton and met an archivist who showed her the marriage certificate dated 1906 of George Thomas Barton and Harriet Ayling, aged 26 and 20 respectively. On the 1911 census, George was 30, Harriet 26, and they had three children, plus the census entry said that they had had another child who had died. Another 1911 census entry showed James Edwards with his wife Mabel and their children Arthur and Mabel Doris. Lesley went to Brighton Pavilion and met a social historian who showed her the electoral register entry for 34 Washington Street in 1918: James was listed as absent, and along with Mabel there was a man called Frederick Ernest Nash. Lesley was also shown the birth certificate from 1921 of a child of Frederick and Mabel. On the 1939 Register James and Harriet were both listed with the surname Edwards, his occupation given as railway works labourer. James died on the 8th June 1943, and his will left everything to "my friend Harriet Barton... with whom I have been living".

Lesley contacted Hazel Manville her cousin's wife, who had been researching the Manville family tree. Hazel showed her a baptism record from 1821 - Lesley's 2xg-grandfather James Harding, baptised at Selborne, Hampshire, the son of Aaron Harding, a labourer, and his wife Sarah nee Stacey. Hazel also showed her the marriage licence allegation dated 1810 for Aaron, aged 20, with consent of his mother Mary Crutcher, and Sarah aged 23, both of the parish of West Worldham. Hazel said that she hadn't managed to find Aaron's death record.

Lesley went to Selborne and met an historian who showed her Sarah's burial record - she died in 1829, aged 44, the mother of 9 children, the youngest of whom was 8 months old when she died. Lesley was then shown the eyewitness testimony of a local vicar, Rev. Cobbold, about a mob led by Aaron Harding, heading towards the workhouse in November 1830 as part of the Swing Riots. The testimony said that Aaron demanded that wages should be raised. Lesley and the historian went to the site of the workhouse and looked at another report which said that a mob of 300 men armed with clubs went to the workhouse and smashed it up. The mob then went on to Headley, the next parish, and according to another local newspaper report, entered the workhouse there and smashed it up too. The rioters included Aaron and his younger brother, Thomas Harding. They were arrested soon after and put on trial at Winchester. Lesley went to Winchester Castle and met an historian who showed her newspaper reports of the two trials. The verdict in the first trial, concerning the attack on the Selborne workhouse, was not guilty, but the verdict in the second trial, for the attack on the Headley workhouse, was guilty. The judge said that a sentence of death should be recorded but not formally pronounced. Aaron's sentence was commuted to transportation for life, and Thomas's to transportation for 7 years. Aaron was sent to New South Wales on the ship Eleanor, arriving in June 1831.

Lesley went to Sydney, to the barracks where the convicts were held on arrival, and she was shown the details held about Aaron, including his trade which was described as "ploughs, reaps, sows". A document showed that Aaron was sent to work for John Atkinson, a free settler, at Sutton Forest. Lesley went there, about 80 miles away from Sydney, and met a local historian who showed her a record which said that in 1837 Aaron was given a conditional pardon, since the Home Secretary had accounced in parliament the previous year that the Swing Rioters would all be given absolute or conditional pardons. Aaron's conditional pardon meant that he would have to stay in Australia or New Zealand.

Lesley was then shown the 1845 baptism record of Aaron Harding jr, the son of Aaron and Alice Harding (Sargent) of Sutton Forest, with Aaron sr's occupation given as farming. Alice was married to somebody else and had four children with her husband. Lesley went to All Saints Church, where Aaron jr was baptised, and met Rebecca and Clare Watts, descendants of Aaron jr and thus half fourth cousins of Lesley's. They showed Lesley a photo of Aaron sr, Alice, and another son William Harding, taken about 1850 in South Australia. They also showed her a report of Aaron sr's death from the Adelaide Times of 1851, which said that an inquest was held which heard that he had been driving a bullock-dray from the port and had adopted the method of riding on the pole, from which he fell, and that was how he died.
__________________
KiteRunner

Family History News updated 3rd Feb
Westminster Electoral Registers 1902-1970 new on Ancestry
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 27-07-23, 23:14
kiterunner's Avatar
kiterunner kiterunner is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 25,244
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olde Crone View Post
I found this episode interesting but with the usual annoyances. Lesley rhapsodised about the use of the word "friend" in the will. In fact this is a common legal word used to describe an unmarried partner and would have been suggested by the solicitor drawing up the will.
I agree, OC. Did she think that James came up with the phrase "I give devise and bequeath" by himself too?!

When did everyone decide that the name Aaron should be pronounced Arron? I have always heard it pronounced as Air-on before and the dictionary agrees with me.
__________________
KiteRunner

Family History News updated 3rd Feb
Westminster Electoral Registers 1902-1970 new on Ancestry
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 27-07-23, 23:36
Olde Crone Olde Crone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,833
Default

Yes, it has always been pronounced Airon in my lifetime!

OC
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 27-07-23, 23:47
kiterunner's Avatar
kiterunner kiterunner is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 25,244
Default

On the 1921 census, James Arthur Edwards is with his mother and sister in Brighton. His marital status is written as Sep, crossed out and replaced with Married. Harriet is also in Brighton, with her daughters Winifred and Peggy, and her marital status is given as Married.
__________________
KiteRunner

Family History News updated 3rd Feb
Westminster Electoral Registers 1902-1970 new on Ancestry
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:36.


Hosted by Photon IT

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 PL3
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.