Who Do You Think You Are - Gemma Collins 26th Sep

[kiterunner]

On BBC1 at 9 p.m. and repeated next Monday at 11:55 p.m.

[Margaret in Burton]

Well, that was better than I anticipated. I’ve only ever seen her glammed up so was amazed she appeared without make up.

[crawfie]

It struck me as wrong at the time so I looked it up. Gemma's mother, born in 1955 said her mother came to see her when she was 5 and had a 45record of Honky Tonk Women by the Rolling Stones. That record was released in 1969.

Like Marg though it was better than I expected. However I have never seen Gemma in anything so have only really been aware of her from news articles.

[kiterunner]

Episode summary:

Gemma Collins grew up in Romford, Essex, with her brother Russell Collins. Their parents are Alan Collins and Joan nee Williams. Joan was left in the hospital where she was born, and was brought up by a foster family, but she never told Gemma much about her childhood. Gemma went to see Joan, who showed her the foster parents' agreement with the local council, which showed that Joan went to live with them on the 7th March 1955, just two weeks after her birth. Her foster mother's name was Edith Timbrell. Joan showed Gemma two photos of her (Joan) as a child, the second one being taken at a children's home where she was sent for two months at the age of 13 because she had been playing truant. After that she went back to live with the foster family. When she was 4, her mother visited her, bringing gifts including sweets and a Rolling Stones record (but see Crawfie's post!) She remembered her mother visiting another time and taking her to see her aunt Winnie Williams and cousin Christine Williams, Winnie's daughter. When Joan was a teenager, her mother wrote her a letter asking her to bring her a packet of cigarettes, which she did, but that was the last time she saw her. She once tried to get in touch with Christine, but failed. Her mother died at the age of 61.

Joan's birth certificate showed that she was born at Lambeth Hospital. Her mother's name was also Joan Williams. Joan had heard that Joan sr had been in two hospitals in Epsom when she was young - St Ebba's and Long Grove. Gemma went to Epsom and met an historian at a heritage centre on the old hospital site, who told her that St Ebba's and Long Grove were two psychiatric hospitals out of five which used to be there. Joan sr's admission records showed that she was admitted on the 31st Aug 1951 at the age of 13, and left 8 months later when she was 14. This admission was voluntary. St Ebba's was an adolescent unit and had been set up in 1949. Joan sr was then admitted to Long Grove on the 4th March 1955, age 17, less than two weeks after giving birth. This admission was certified, i.e. ordered by a doctor. The diagnosis on her admission to St Ebba's was schizophrenia, and on her admission to Long Grove, chronic schizophrenia. Gemma went to the Royal College of Psychiatrists in London and met a psychiatrist whoh showed her an article called "The Psychoses of Adolescence" which was written by Dr Sands, a doctor at the Epsom hospitals. Joan jr's foster care records mentioned that her mother was sent into care in Oct 1954 (when she would have been 6 months pregnant), under a "fit person's order". The records also showed that she was in contact with the foster home until 1961 but that her contact with them was erratic.

Gemma then went to Dagenham to visit her mother's cousin Christine and Christine's daughters Lindy and Carrie. Christine showed her a photo of herself with Winnie and Joan jr when they were children, also a photo of Joan sr. She remembered going with Winnie to visit Joan sr at a prefab in Brixton, and that Joan sr didn't talk much but smoked a lot. Winnie told her that Joan couldn't cope with children. Christine also had some older photos - one of Winnie and Joan's parents, William Williams and Daisy nee Dutton with their other two daughters, Rene Williams and Dolly Williams, and another of William on his own. Christine said that William was an air raid warden in WW2, and that the family lived in Angela Street in Tower Hamlets.

Gemma went to Tower Hamlets Archives and met an historian who showed her William's 1901 census entry - he was with his parents, William Williams, a bricklayer, and Thirza nee Moore and sisters Nora and Julia Williams, living in one bedroom in a house in Dorset Street, the house being shared with several other families. On Charles Booth's Poverty Map, Dorset Street was marked "lowest class, semi-criminal". The historian told Gemma that three of Jack the Ripper's victims were connected with Dorset Street, and that one of them was murdered there. When another murder took place at around the time that the Williams family lived there, a Daily Mail journalist wrote an article describing the street as "the worst street in London, where criminals were trained". Jack McCarthy, landlord of some of the houses in the street, called a meeting attended by about 400 people to reply to the Daily Mail's attack.

Gemma then went to Spitalfields and met an historian who showed her the Whitechapel Workhouse Infirmary Admissions Register for William sr - he was admitted in 1902, age 45, suffering from lumbago, and died there, perhaps after catching a disease there. The historian then showed Gemma baptism records for Nora and Julia, aged 8 and 7, at Crispin Street School, otherwise known as St Joseph's Catholic School, which was part of a Catholic convent and refuge, which helped poor families. Gemma was then shown Thirza's birth certificate. She was born in 1865 in Haggerston. Her parents were Gerard Moore, a hairdresser, and Thirza nee Moles. Gemma went to Hackney to meet a cultural historian and a hair and makeup artist who told her about Victorian hairdressing. The 1851 census showed Gerard as Jared, living at Church Street, Eye, Suffolk, with his widowed mother Dinah Moore and several siblings. On the 1861 census Jared was at Kent Street, Haggerston, with Thirza sr, whose birthplace was Foulness Island, Essex. Gemma went there (by invitation, due to MOD restrictions) and met a man who runs the heritage centre there. He showed her Thirza sr's family tree. Thirza was born in 1822, the eighth of twelve children of James Moles, born in 1778, and Sarah nee Garnham, who lived next door to each other as children. He also showed Gemma the History of the Rochford Hundred, which explained how difficult and dangerous it was to get to Foulness.

[Margaret in Burton]

Originally Posted by crawfie

It struck me as wrong at the time so I looked it up. Gemma's mother, born in 1955 said her mother came to see her when she was 5 and had a 45record of Honky Tonk Women by the Rolling Stones. That record was released in 1969.

Like Marg though it was better than I expected. However I have never seen Gemma in anything so have only really been aware of her from news articles.

Yes. The Rolling Stones registered with me. Didn’t make sense

[kiterunner]

So many assumptions made with little evidence! It does annoy me when they do that. And I spotted the Rolling Stones mistake at once too. They weren't even together when Joan was 4 since they started as a band in 1962.

[kiterunner]

I've been trying to find Thirza Williams and Nora, Julia and William on the 1911 census but getting nowhere. Might have to leave it till tomorrow. This is the 1901 census for ref:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...e&pId=17445800

[Ann from Sussex]

Originally Posted by Margaret in Burton

Yes. The Rolling Stones registered with me. Didn’t make sense

Me too! I suppose though, it is easy to confuse timelines for things that happened in your childhood, especially perhaps when memories are painful. However, I thought it was a really good episode and the East End stuff resonated with me although my East Enders were a generation and more before Gemma's. Actually, for me, this was a "David Dickinson" episode. I did not expect to like Gemma Collins from all I've read but she came across as intelligent, articulate, sensible (no emoting, no exclaiming "oh wow" over each new find) and, I thought, a nice person. She won brownie points from me for having the confidence to appear without all the make up and fancy hair. Good on y'gal!

[kiterunner]

Marriage at St James the Great, Bethnal Green, 26 Sep 1881:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ce&pId=5640298

Alfred William Holland, full age, bachelor, carman, father Alfred Holland, dealer, and Thirza Moore, 18, spinster, father Gerrard Moore, fish dealer.

[kiterunner]

Children of Alfred William and Thirza:

Alfred Samuel Holland, baptised 11 Dec 1881, parents Alfred William and Thirza. Not found his birth reg yet.
Emily Mary Ann Jan-Mar 1884 Shoreditch <-- baptised as Charlotte Mary Ann, parents Alfred and Therza
William Alfred Jan-Mar 1886 Shoreditch <-- found baptism parents Alfred William and Thyrza
Henry Apr-Jun 1888 Shoreditch <- found baptism parents Alfred and Thyrza
Nora Oct-Dec 1896 Shoreditch
Julia Jan-Mar 1898 Shoreditch

Not found William's birth reg yet though.