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Old 16-09-21, 17:41
maggie_4_7
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I have been searching for the births of:

Frederick Sayer born about 1870 but on some trees they have 9th March 1868

and

Jane Sayer born about 1872.

Supposedly from DNA matches their mother is Caroline Sayer my 2 great grandfather William's s older sister here she is on the 1851 census.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...NDcyNTE3OTUuMA..

Some background information and it is very complicated.

She had at least 4 other illegitimate children.

Martha Sayer 1855 birth certificate has Henry Dunn as father but then crossed out born 2 New North Street her mother Elizabeth's address on a workhouse admission.

Henry Dunn Sayer born 1857 no father named but I am guessing Henry Dunn was both Martha and Henry's father by Henry's name.

All three on 1861 census:-

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...NDcyNDY4OTIuMA..

Henry Dunn Sayer marries in 1879 occupation wood chopper and his sister Martha is a witness, I have not found Martha since but Henry died in 1911.

Now this is where it gets complicated, I lost Caroline for a long time until some DNA matches popped up that were quite low and I could not work out where except that they had a census on their tree with a Caroline Sayer in 1881 with 3 more children Frederick, Jane and Elizabeth but head of household a James Sayer b1826 bootmaker (I don't think he existed or if he did that isn't his surname, it's probably James Gilbert). These people are descended from Jane and Elizabeth and another daughter born later named Caroline Rose.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...NDcyNTE4OTguMA..

Found Elizabeth's birth, Elizabeth Ann borne 16 Jan 1876 • 5 Cambridge Street, Bethnal Green, London, England illegitimate, mother Caroline Sayer laundress.

Again I couldn't find Caroline, Henry or Martha in 1871 but a few weeks ago I did a bit more digging without a surname but including Frederick and a census popped up that I dismissed but then I got drawn back to it and read the census properly and decided it is probably her but without Martha but with another child Thomas. Head of household James Gilbert bootmaker and is probably the James on the 1881 census, with a son Henry a wood chopper! I think James Gilbert existed but is on an 1881 census in Wandsworth with his daughter Ellen and also with her in 1861. Could be Frederick and Jane's father and I think Caroline used James' first name and occupation for the 1881 census even though he wasn't there but giving him the name Sayer.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...pid=-941828330

Found Thomas' birth under Sayer born 13 Nov 1861 • 2 Cottage Place mother Caroline Sayer father George Wyatt bricklayer. Haven't found Thomas again but he was registered in Shoreditch but 2 Cottage Place was in Poplar and a George White is living there with his wife Mary in 1861! <This is wrong Merry found a Cottage Place in Shoreditch

On 1881 it says both Frederick and Jane was born in Ireland but I don't believe that is true unless she popped to Ireland between 1862 and was back for the 1871 census then back, to Ireland again in 1872.

Caroline had yet another daughter Caroline Rose Sayer known as Rose born 13 Sep 1881 • 15 Cambridge Street, Bethnal Green, London, England mother Caroline Sayer wood chopper no father listed

1891 census:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...pid=-941828330

Caroline Sayers dies 1906 daughter Elizabeth Ann Austin nee Sayer her daughter was informant.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...NDcyNTI3MDEuMA..

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...pid=-941828330

Phew a long story and Caroline seemed to have lived a complicated life and survived.

Last edited by maggie_4_7; 14-03-22 at 13:51.
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Old 16-09-21, 17:51
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If you think Frederick was born in Shoreditch, you could go through all the Frederick births in Shoreditch 1868-1870 on FreeBMD and look them up one by one on the GRO site to see if any has MMN Sayer. Might take a while, though.
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Old 16-09-21, 18:10
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Or you could go through baptisms of Fredericks and Janes in the area who have mother's name Caroline, then check each of those on the GRO site to see MMN.
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Old 16-09-21, 21:07
maggie_4_7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiterunner View Post
If you think Frederick was born in Shoreditch, you could go through all the Frederick births in Shoreditch 1868-1870 on FreeBMD and look them up one by one on the GRO site to see if any has MMN Sayer. Might take a while, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiterunner View Post
Or you could go through baptisms of Fredericks and Janes in the area who have mother's name Caroline, then check each of those on the GRO site to see MMN.
I have tried that but I keep getting distracted. I have a feeling she didn't register them perhaps she was getting embarrassed at the registry office she eventually had 7 illegitimate children god knows how she managed financially, although the first three and the last two Elizabeth and Caroline Rose were registered.
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