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  #11  
Old 08-02-17, 18:47
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Hi Nick and Merry

Just a quick post to say I have seen this discussion, but dont have time to read it fully at the moment.

I have found the 1832 burial at Withybrook and am pretty convinced its our Sarah. Aren't wills the best things !! So much information in some of them. But I wouldn't looked for a will for Martha Timbs, being a way of the main track of my research.

Given the family history, I would also think that our Wilfords are non-conformist, so maybe no "baptisms" will be found.
Except the marriage, and his mothers name of Ebenezer's death certificate and the use of the Wilford as a middle name in some parts of the Iliffe family, we would have had no idea about her.

I do think the Pitts connection is a strong one, so I will look at your information tonight and revise my tree.I think I have found the Pitts/Moore connection, but I am so excited by the details you provide, I can see I will be getting back into some serious searching as soon as I can.

I dont know why some researchers are not prepared to be "corrected" by those with better information - I am always delighted to find someone else researching my family, and if they have found information I have not uncovered after 15 years, its such a thrill.

I am still chipping away at the Ebenezer/John Iliffe mystery, but as neither was "registered" at Monks Kirby with the other Iliffe children, its been a long roundabout search. I am hoping something in the Lands Dept records might provide a clue.

Di

Last edited by marquette; 08-02-17 at 18:55.
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  #12  
Old 09-02-17, 05:45
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Back again

Sarah Wilford and John Iliffe had a son Charles Iliffe, who died aged 19 - so it makes sense if her father was Charles Wilford.

There is another connection which I think must belong as well -

Phoebe Frances Munday (daughter of Mary Iliffe, grand-daughter of Sarah Wilford) married William Samuel Wilford in 1904 in the Wellingborough Reg District. In the 1901 census she was his housekeeper in Newport Pagnell. I think he was the grandson of Charles Wilford and Sarah Pearson. So many Charles Wilfords, no wonder we can be confused !

Her 1953 Will was probated to Leonard and Elizabeth Chapman, but I have not worked out who they are, I don't think.

Diane
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  #13  
Old 09-02-17, 07:55
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Hi Again

I had a look at the Will of Martha Timbs - Robert and Alice Webb (nee Muddiman) are the parents of Sarah Webb who married Enoch Iliffe, son of Sarah Wilford Iliffe.

Perhaps a tight-knit little group of non-conformists ?
Off to do some research and see what else I can find

Di

Last edited by marquette; 09-02-17 at 08:18.
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  #14  
Old 09-02-17, 08:04
NickiP NickiP is offline
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Pleased to have been able to help. The Wilfords, along with my Marsons, have been a bit of a nightmare researching for years!

Interesting that Pheobe Frances Munday married William Samuel Wilford from Newport Pagnell. His Benjamin brother married Charlotte Bromwich who was admittedly born at Newport Pagnell the daughter of Martin Bromwich so could be a coincidence. Martin Bromwich moved there from Hardwick, Northamptonshire, via Market Harborough. However, Martin's father William I'm pretty sure is the second cousin of Mary Wilford's husband William Marson so it may not be such a coincidence.

Charles Wilford husband of Sarah Pearson I'm starting to suspect could be another sibling. As you probably know they married in Market Harborough in 1804 moved to Daventry and then Newport Pagnell. Sarah dies I think in 1822, if memory serves me right, and Charles remarries before dying there in 1835. I know he leaves a Will held at Buckinghamshire Record Office and of which I'm hoping to get a copy to see if he mentions any relatives in light of the fact his children's mother was already deceased. Its a long shot but not impossible especially considering how close Newport Pagnell is to Old Stratford and Stony Stratford where Martha Timbs nee Wilford, John Norton Wilford and Sarah Gardiner nee Marson lived. The fact that Charles and Sarah had a son Benjamin (who would have been named after his grandfather) and daughter Martha also raised my interest in them as another possible sibling.

On the subject of the name Ebenezer. There is an Ebenezer Wilford baptised to William and Elizabeth nee Edmunds at Welford Independent Chapel, Northamptonshire, in 1794. His parents married in 1782 at Daventry Holy Cross and William's signature matches that of the witness to Charles Wilford and Martha Allen's marriage in 1777 so I believe he is probably Charles' brother baptised at Naseby in 1751. He died in 1802. There are only three confirmed children to them, Ebenezer, Job baptised at Welford Independent in 1793 and I believe the Robert Wilford son of William and Elizabeth buried at Naseby in 1796. However, there is a William Wilford who married Sarah Smith at Braybrooke, Northamptonshire, in 1821 who states he was born c1786 at Naseby. No baptism found but he would appear to be the William Wilford who witnessed Ebenezer's second marriage at Market Harborough in 1830 (very similar signature) and I suspect he could be another of William and Elizabeth's sons. Some researchers claim that William snr married Elizabeth Gibbs but I'm pretty sure that William was the son of William Wilford and Elizabeth nee Webb and was baptised at Naseby in 1777, buried there in 1844.

There is also a Benjamin Wilford who married Ann Stevenson at Swithland, Leicestershire, in 1815. Again one of the witnesses is a William Wilford and his signature does look very similar to the William Wilford who married Sarah Smith. That Benjamin died at Loughborough in March qtr 1840 aged 54 years (according to the new GRO website index). Some researchers claim he was the son of Benjamin Wilford and Sarah Henson but their son wasn't born until 1799 and appears to have married twice in Naseby and stayed there. Its possible he could be another son of William Wilford and Elizabeth Edmunds and wasn't baptised or was baptised at a non-conformist chapel whose registers are lost or haven't been indexed/digitised yet. William's father was obviously Benjamin.

Of the four siblings of Sarah Iliffe nee Wilford, the oldest confirmed would appear to be Joseph who married Hannah Bull at Hasebech in 1805 and following her death in 1837 he married the widow Elizabeth Warren at Blissworth Register Office. The witnesses to his second marriage were Thomas Pitts and Hannah Pitts, obviously his sister and brother in law. Joseph was buried at Naseby in March 1850 aged 70 years. Martha would appear to have been born c1781/2. She married William Timbs at Cosgrove in 1812 and died Sept qtr 1856 Potterspury Registration District with her age on the new GRO website index listed as 75 years. As Merry found, Mary married William Marson at Naseby in 1815, witnesses being brother Joseph (who had a very distinct signature) and sister Hannah prior to her marriage. She would appear to have been buried at Stowe IX Churches in Oct 1819 aged 33 years. Stowe's post 1813 burial register hasn't yet been deposited with the Record Office but the BTs do have a burial which Ancestry have indexed as Masteris but which looks more like Mastern to me. I suspect this is Mary's burial as the BTs are fairly complete as far as I can see. Only a check of the originals held by the parish church would confirm it and I'm uninclined to be honest to pay the Cof E's exorbitant charges to do this. Mary was definitely deceased before 1841. Hannah was born c1791. When she died in 1873 she was listed as 82 years which tends to tie in with her age on the Census. She would only have been about 20 when John Norton Wilford was born. Interestingly she was subject to a settlement examination in 1817 when John was about 6 years old. I've not seen the original yet, its held at Northamptonshire Record Office, but it may well confirm her father was Charles and was legally settled in Naseby to allow her to remain there, but without seeing it this is I accept speculation. She must have fallen on hard times in 1817 to have been subject to the examination as she would have thought there would have been a bastardy bond in 1811 otherwise for when he was born. According to forum posts by a Toronto based researcher JNW's father was Richard Norton of Yelvertoft which I'm assuming is confirmed by the settlement examination. I suspect this is where the confusion about her parents being Charles Wilford and Mary nee Hains comes from as there are obviously no children baptised to Charles and Martha nee Allen anywhere, albeit that Hannah's age should really have rung alarm bells to that theory as she was born about 6 years before the marriage. The parish clerk in 1812 didn't help by not listing any ages on the multiple baptism for Charles and Mary nee Hains' children. I think Charles and Mary's daughter Hannah married William Burbage at Naseby in 1818, one of the witnesses was her father's great niece Sarah Wilford and that Sarah's future husband Thomas Ringrose.

The Wilfords of Naseby and surrounding areas are a bit of a nightmare because of missing baptisms and the use of the same names over so many generations. It had taken years to confirm my suspicions about Mary's parentage and siblings and while I can't prove yet that their mother was Martha Allen it was the fact that she had a sister Martha, a daughter Martha (baptised at Naseby in 1817 but from Stowe), and Joseph had a son Benjamin (named after what would be Joseph's grandfather Benjamin Wilford) raised my suspicions. I accept it is all only circumstancial evidence for now about the identity of the sibling's mother but I think a good case could be made for it. Hopefully one of these days something can be found to confirm it beyond any doubt!

Nicola
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  #15  
Old 09-02-17, 08:12
NickiP NickiP is offline
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Alice Muddiman was baptised Alice Muddyman Tims 7 March 1790 at Towcester daughter of Ann Tims. I suspect she's related to Martha's husband William, although she dropped the Tims when she married.

I have to admit I'd not realised their daughter had married Enoch Iliffe but have only started looking at the Iliffe's in more detail recently.

Last edited by NickiP; 09-02-17 at 09:02.
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  #16  
Old 09-02-17, 08:37
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I found records for the children of Robert and Alice Webb on familysearch, listed birthdates, baptism dates and death dates (for some) at the "Independent, Potterspury and Yardley Gobion, Northampton". Apparently, the indpendent chapel was at Yardley Gobion an outlying village as there was no church there until 1864 and its within the Potterspury parish. The history of the area seems pretty complex.
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  #17  
Old 09-02-17, 08:48
NickiP NickiP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marquette View Post
Aren't wills the best things !! So much information in some of them. But I wouldn't looked for a will for Martha Timbs, being a way of the main track of my research.
Di
I only picked up the Will after I realised that one of John Gardiner and Sarah Marson's sons was William Timbs Gardiner, having found that Sarah was working as a servant to Martha Timbs of Old Stratford on the 1841 Census. As Martha married some distance from Naseby, it wasn't a marriage I would have picked up very easily particularly as there is no baptised for Martha in Naseby.

Wills have been the saviour of a lot of research over the years, particularly where parish registers are missing. We have one line in Essex where a few Wills confirm three generations, information about which wouldn't be found otherwise because the parish registers don't start early enough.
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  #18  
Old 10-02-17, 20:16
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Hi Nicola

Thanks for the further information about the Wilfords. They are not my only non-conformist families - pretty much all of mum's side of the family was - the Wilfords and the Houghtons may be the oldest though.

I always suspected that tracing Sarah's family would be difficult as they would turn out to be dissenters in a chapel whose records were not available, unlike the Houghtons who attended the one at Broughton near Kettering.

Diane
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  #19  
Old 10-02-17, 23:25
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Hi Diane

Its only really that generation of Wilfords who were probably dissenters. The earlier generations all used Church of England, but there are quite a lot of them with the same names which makes for fun trying to sort out the various family lines.

Nicola
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  #20  
Old 01-08-17, 23:31
NickiP NickiP is offline
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Sadly the Will of Charles Wilford of Newport Pagnell from 1835 only mentions his three surviving children, second wife and two local friends who were to be trustees of his estate until the death of his second wife, at which point it was to be divided between his surviving children. So no further in trying to confirm who his parents were, although it still wouldn't surprise me if it was Charles Wilford and Martha Allen.

On a more positive note I now think I know who Martha Allen's parents were, but as with the Wilford children there appear to be know recorded baptisms for either her or her five probable siblings (based on marriage witnesses) and nor her father either. The Allens definitely look likely to have been non-conformist for several generations, albeit that there is a link back to the Naseby area which is useful. All based on supposition but I think I can make a good argument for it.
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