#11
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Seven years on and I have made little progress on details about William Martin.
I thought the new GRO indexes with ages might help me find his death records, but not so far. However, a death index entry for a 3 year old William Martin, did prove to be his son William Martin. William Martin senior registered the death of the 3 and half year old "child of a carpenter" at 31 Hanover St, the same address as the birth certificates of other sons Robert and James and the same address as the 1841 census entry for the family. So William Martin senior was alive on 8th November 1842 when he registered his son's death. In 1841 he is recorded as 25, so between 25 and 30. I compared all the FreeBMD and GRO William Martin deaths in Brighton between 1842 and 1851, and then matched them up with burials - the most likely one was a 37 year old who died in March 1847 - but I am fairly sure its not mine. The death certificate says he was a labourer who died of phthisis and the death was registered by an unrelated Ruth Booker. So, either one of the ages at death is not correctly transcribed/recorded or William Martin died away from his home in Brighton and is registered in another district. Going to check out who Ruth Booker might be, just in case. No evidence of a marriage between William Martin and Elizabeth Berwick has been found either. |
#12
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It looks like they had another son:
MARTIN,JOSEPH mmn BERWICK GRO Reference: 1844 D Quarter in BRIGHTHELMSTON Volume 07 Page 272 There are three possible death registrations before 1851. The one in 1850 says the age is 1 - which could mean hours, days, weeks, months or a year, but whichever, isn't going to be yours. However, either of the other two registrations in Q1 1845 could fit if the age isn't years, but months weeks hours etc: MARTIN, JOSEPH aged 3 GRO Reference: 1845 M Quarter in BRIGHTHELMSTON Volume 07 Page 241 MARTIN, JOSEPH aged 11 GRO Reference: 1845 M Quarter in BRIGHTHELMSTON Volume 07 Page 237
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Merry "Something has been filled in that I didn't know was blank" Matthew Broderick WDYTYA? March 2010 |
#13
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Thank you Merry, I had not thought to look for another child - until the GRO indexes came along it was impossible to even consider.
I think the first death might be the right Joseph - Sussex Family History Group burial records for St Nicholas says the child was "inf" (so maybe 3 months?) buried 26 Feb 1845, of Kew St - and Kew St is where Elizabeth, Robert and James lived in the 1851 census ! I will get the death cert to find out if William registered the death. Seems likely, given the time frame. There's no baptisms in Brighton, or any where in Sussex, either, for Robert, James or Joseph. Thank you Merry. Every little clue helps. |
#14
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I now have baby Joseph Martin's 1845 death certificate. And he is the son of William and Elizabeth of 19 Kew St Brighton.
Joseph died 21 Feb 1845 aged 3 months of "weakness". He is described as "son of William Martin, carpenter", so I assume that his father William was still alive at that time. His mother Elizabeth registered the death. None of the remaining William Martin deaths or burials in Brighton (from freeBMD, GRO Indexes or Sussex FH database) match with what I know (or think I know). None of the FreeBMD or SussexFH burial records for the rest of Sussex seem to match either, so I guess I am going to be looking much further afield. |
#15
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Do you have the burial for this one?
MARTIN, WILLIAM aged 29 GRO Reference: 1849 D Quarter in BRIGHTHELMSTON Volume 07 Page 244 I realise in theory he's too young, but if he was younger than Elizabeth his age might have been bumped up for the 1841 census.
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Merry "Something has been filled in that I didn't know was blank" Matthew Broderick WDYTYA? March 2010 |
#16
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Hi Merry
I looked closely at that death, too. Given William's age in 1841 was rounded to 25, I looked at every death, 1845-1851 in Sussex for a William Martin aged 29-40 and there are not that many. However, it now seems they may have stayed in Kew St from 1845 to 1851, so the Marshall Row abode in the burials seems to rule it out. Also if he was only 29, he would have been only 18-9 when eldest son William was born, so IF William and Elizabeth did marry, there should have been a licence issued ? Unless, like his son Robert, lied about his age. So maybe William and Elizabeth lied about everything - as well as their ages, that they married, registering their sons with the MARTIN surname and mothers maiden name BERWICK, that she was a widow in 1851. If that is the case, then the only thing they did not lie about was that they lived in the same house for the 1841 census, Roberts birth, James birth and William Juniors death, and the same street for Joseph's death and 1851 census, and William's occupation as carpenter. The 1848 Brighton Registration for William Martin age 67, could be William's father. There is an 1816 baptism for William Martin, son of William Martin (Carpenter) and Jane, of Pimlico. The 1848 burial record says of Pimlico. I need to see if I can find him in the 1841 census. Maybe also, William was not actually dead, maybe I should be looking further afield to see if he was a convict. |
#17
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I think 'lied about everything' sounds a bit drastic! If they didn't actually marry, for whatever reason, all the lies that come after that would be pretty normal ones!
I'm not sure why you would think they would have had a marriage licence if William was under age? They wouldn't have needed one in order to marry - in normal circumstances the vicar would just have needed the word of a parent for consent. Now, Marshall Row - I looked to see if there were any clues in this street. In 1841 and 1851 we have the same couple living there: 1841 James Martin 60 Ag Lab Yes Mary Martin 55 Yes Sarah Martin 21 Yes 1851 James Martin head married 68 labourer b Wivelsfield, Sussex Mary Martin wife married 73 b ditto I'd say there's some chance the William Martin who died in 1849 aged 29 is connected with this couple and may be their son (but not necessarily your William!). There's no obvious bap for Sarah (presuming she is their daughter, which of course she may not be), but we don't know where in Sussex she was born. EDIT: The family next door to James and Mary in 1851 are William and Sarah Skinner (aged 30 b Brighton). I wondered if this was the Sarah Martin who appears with James and Mary in 1841. I looked briefly for a marriage 1841-1851 on FreeBMD and found nothing, but when I checked out the registration of their dau, Emily aged 1 in 1851 ....surprise, surprise! SKINNER, EMILY mmn MARTIN GRO Reference: 1849 S Quarter in BRIGHTHELMSTON Volume 07 Page 309 Looking further, they married in Whitechapel in London: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...nSearchResults Sarah says her father is James, labourer. I think the Skinner's may have had two children before their marriage (not Betsy - after her) both registered as Skinner with mmn Martin, but more research would be needed to be more certain there isn't another couple with the same surnames. Both those children seem to have died by 1851. I can't be sure that Betsy (or maybe Elizabeth/Eliza etc) was registered at all (assuming she was registered as a Martin, but we don't know what name she might have started life with!). The next issue is that I can't find an obvious bap for Sarah in or near Brighton with father James (I didn't include mother's forename as we don't know when James married Mary). Of course I also can't find a bap for James and Mary's son (if that's who William who died in 1849 was) either! None of the above is of much consequence if it's not the right William, but I suppose gradually untangling different Williams might help in the long run!
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Merry "Something has been filled in that I didn't know was blank" Matthew Broderick WDYTYA? March 2010 |
#18
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I've looked at Sarah Skinner on each census until her death (she remarried to Stephen John Smith in 1857 which didn't help much! lol) in case she had any useful relatives such as cousins, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews etc living with her, but other than Stephen, Stephen's children from his previous marriage and her dau, Emily, she never had anyone else in the household.
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Merry "Something has been filled in that I didn't know was blank" Matthew Broderick WDYTYA? March 2010 |
#19
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I didn't see this before in the non-conformist records:
Sarah Martin born 15 Mar 1820 Baptism 23 Apr 1820 Brighton, Sussex, England parents James and Mary The image doesn't give an occupation for James. I didn't find any other baptisms for children of James and Mary in this database.
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Merry "Something has been filled in that I didn't know was blank" Matthew Broderick WDYTYA? March 2010 |
#20
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I think James Martin died Q4 1855 aged 74.
Mary possibly Q3 1853 aged 76.
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Merry "Something has been filled in that I didn't know was blank" Matthew Broderick WDYTYA? March 2010 |
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