Who Do You Think You Are - Celia Imrie 10th Oct
 

This evening on BBC1 at 9 p.m., postponed from last week.

Debrette's at the ready.

OOh, she comes from Guildford, my mum's home town and my birthplace.
She also went to the same school as my mum did (until she was 12).

http://www.thegenealogist.co.uk/feat...2012_imrie.php

Interesting feature, Elizabeth. Looking forward to the show.

That's an interesting site Elizabeth, haven't come across that one before, so I've bookmarked it to have a good look round later. Are you a member? Is it helpful/useful?

Dorothy, I'm not a member and I came across this article purely by googling Celia Imrie's name. I have been on the site before, though, and I'm signed up, but I haven't been on it for ages.

Ok Elizabeth, thanks - I'll have a look. :)

Dorothy, take a look at this old thread:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/f...ad.php?t=10180

There are pros and cons to The Genealogist. HarrysMum wouldn't be without it, at least so she said at that time. WendyPusey said she wouldn't touch them with a barge pole because they'll fine you if they think you're doing lookups for other people.

Both me & hubby grew up & went to school in Guildford :), know it very well. So am looking forward to this. I doubt she moved in the same circles as us though lol

Do you know which school she attended?

Sue :)

Guildford High School, Sue. My Mum and her two younger sisters went there.

Thanks Elizabeth, not the same school as me.

Sue :)

I must admit I dozed off too. It was interesting historically and politically, but I was too tired to take it all in!

Episode Summary

Celia Imrie lives in London with her 18-year-old son Angus. She was born in Surrey in 1952. Her father David was a doctor with working-class Glasgow roots, and her mother Diana came from an aristocratic background.




Celia went to visit her cousin Patricia who showed her a photograph of a house called The Croft where their grandparents used to live. Patricia said that Celia's mother Diana was 34 when she married David and had previously been engaged three times.

Celia's grandparents were Charles George Lumley Cator and Adeline Louisa Blois and Patricia gave her a family tree passed on to her by a relative which goes back many generations.

Celia visited the Parliamentary Archives to find out about her 8x-g-grandfather William Lord Russell, born in 1639, the third son of the Earl of Bedford. William was a Whig MP during the reign of Charles II. His wife was Lady Rachel, daughter of the Earl of Southampton. Celia was shown a speech by Lord Russell and a publication claiming that he took part in a conspiracy to kill the king. He was put on trial in 1683 and found guilty of High Treason. He was sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered, but the sentence was commuted to beheading. He made a speech to the crowd proclaiming his innocence, just before he was beheaded. A plaque marks where this took place.

Celia visited Woburn Abbey, the Russell family seat, and was shown a painting of the trial and a pardon issued by King William of Orange after he came to the throne a few years after Lord Russell's trial.


Celia then found out about her 10xg-grandmother (grandmother of William Lord Russell), Frances Howard. Frances was born in 1593, the daughter of the Earl of Suffolk. When she was 13 her family arranged for her marriage to Robert Devereux, the Earl of Essex, who was 14.

In about 1611, Frances wrote a letter to a friend complaining about abuse from her husband, and another letter to a lady called Mrs Anne Turner, which could be interpreted as asking her to kill Frances' husband. There were rumours about Frances' relationship with a man called Robert Carr.

Celia went to Lambeth Palace, where she was shown records of Frances' application to have her marriage annulled on the grounds of non-consummation. A man called Thomas Overbury was opposed to this as he did not want Robert Carr to marry Frances. Thomas Overbury was offered an ambassadorship which he turned down, and for this he was sent to the Tower of London, where he died. Ten days after his death, Frances' annulment was granted, and three months later, she married Robert Carr, the Earl of Somerset.

Two years later, in 1615, Mrs Turner, Frances, and Robert were arrested for conspiring to murder Thomas Overbury. Robert Carr was held in the Tower of London but Frances was put under house arrest until after the birth of her baby (Celia's 9xg-grandmother.) She pleaded guilty but maintained her husband's innocence. Both were convicted and sentenced to death. Frances was soon pardoned due to her confession, her penitence, and her family's good works, and Robert was pardoned seven years later. They were released from the Tower of London in 1622 and Frances died in 1632.

Nope, not interesting as a genealogical programme. This was national history and I already knew all about this, thanks to Jean Plaidy and others,lol.

Disappointing, IMO.

OC

Oh dear. I don't envy your task of writing the resumme of this episode - aka, English history of the 17th century.

I was expecting to have to take loads of notes! I thought they would be going back generation by generation, not just going back 10 generations on the strength of that tree (though I'm sure it was thoroughly checked out.)

I have Cators in my tree, so I would like to know whether Celia's grandfather is related to them!

There is a birth for Charles George L Cator in 1872 Bromley, Kent, so I think this is him in 1881 (sorry if this is of no interest to anyone else!)

Charles G Cator in 1881

I can't help feeling it was rather a waste of a popular programme on ''Family History'' research which we and others - perhaps look to to get inspiration and help. The Howards/aka Norfolks' history is pretty well documented and I'm sure could have been researched by her or her family. Her Cousin(?) seemed to know more about the illustrious heritage - so between them they too must have resources to have done this research.

That's not to say it wasn't very interesting, but as a History programme.

To put it another way, if I had seen a programme advertised about the Howard/Norfolk family, I probably wouldn't have been interested enough to watch it.

OC

While I try and figure the Cators out, I have to say I don't understand why Celia was so proud of Frances Howard - who pleaded guilty to conspiracy to murder! And by the sound of it, her pardon was not on the grounds of innocence or mitigating circumstances, just because her family were influential?

For the first time ever I turned off the TV before the programme had finished. If I'd wanted to know more about two or three specific Stuart courtesans I'd have gone to the library and borrowed a refence book.
I (and probably a lot more members on here) could wave in the air a tree going back to 10xgt grandparents - in my case to my ancestors John Lincoln and his wife Elizabeth of NW Norfolk. John's older brother Richard Lincoln and his wife Elizabeth were the 6th gt-gdparents of Abraham Lincoln. But I know nothing about most of the individuals, apart from bp, marr & burial dates, along with a few wills. The tree is dry and lifeless and would hardly make a rivetting TV programme. The episode tonight was too remote and the characters didn't breathe.

Jay

Celia's great-grandmother's entry in the National Probate Calendar:

1928

CATOR Isabella Maria of 4 Walton-street Kensington Middlesex widow died 1 December 1927 at Manor House Bexley Kent Probate London 3 February to Charles George Lumley Cator esquire and Harry James Shepard solicitor. Effects £17448 7s 9d.

So her great-grandparents look likely to be Charles Clive Cator and Isabella Maria Baker (likely marriage Oct-Dec 1865 Kensington.)

Edit - should be Charles Oliver Cator. There is a death for Charles Oliver F Cator Oct-Dec 1876 Bromley, age 40.

Charles Oliver Frederick Cator born 21 Apr 1836, baptised 29 Apr 1836 Skelbrooke, Yorkshire, parents Thomas Cator and Louisa Frances.

Thomas Cator married Louisa Frances Lumley 12 Oct 1825 Womersley, Yorkshire.

So here are Thomas and Louisa F Cator in 1851 in Skelbrooke, Yorkshire, with children including Charles age 14. Thomas is age 58, Rector of Kirk Smeaton and Incumbent of Womersley, born "Kent, Breckenham" (presumably should be Beckenham.)

Cator family in 1851

And there are public trees on ancestry which show Thomas Cator as the son of Joseph Cator born 1733 in Ross on Wye, Herefordshire, and his wife Diana Bertie, with Joseph being the son of John Cator and Mary Brough. I have these people in my tree. I have Joseph down as born 1733 in Southwark, Surrey, but his father did come from Ross on Wye.

My Cator ancestor is Martha Cator born 1729 Ross on Wye, daughter of Jonah and Martha. Jonah was born 1706 and is the brother of John Cator born 1703, the John who married Mary Brough. These are all Quakers, by the way.

If I remember rightly, John Cator and his descendants appear in Burke's Landed Gentry or something like that, so it should be easy enough to check whether Celia's ancestor Thomas Cator is the right one.

From "Landed Gentry 1855":



The late Joseph Cator, Esq, a merchant of high standing, s to Beckenham and the other estates of his uncle, John Cator, Esq in 1806. He m at Calcutta in 1780, Diana, sister of the late Admiral Sir Albemarle Bertie, Bt., KCB (of the ducal family of Ancaster) and by her (who d in 1829) left at his decease, in 1818, several children, of whom the eldest is the present John Cator, Esq of Beckenham, and the 4th, Rear-Admiral Bertie-Cornelius Cator.

No mention of Thomas by name, bother. I'm getting in a muddle now, will need to leave this till the morning. I think I have John Cator's will somewhere.

Anyway, looks pretty likely that Celia and I are very distant cousins, lol!

I just found Thomas Cator on ancestry in the Cambridge University Alumni and it says he was born 19 Feb 1790, son of Joseph, gent, of Beckenham, Kent, and Diana... married Lady Louisa Frances Lumley, dau of John, Earl of Scarborough...

Thomas Cator

So Celia's 2xg-grandfather Thomas Cator definitely ties up with my tree. Will have to figure out exactly how we are related tomorrow though!

V impressed. Enjoyed following your posts more than I did the actual episode.

OC, I remember the Jean Plaidy book as well:-) There's also a factual account of the murder by Anne Somerset called Unnatural Murder.

I understand why people didn't enjoy it but I like Celia Imrie and the period and I did. I think Celia perhaps should have emphasised that she was fascinated by her ancestor rather than proud of her but then I'd be delighted to have such an interesting ancestor:-) I don't think there's much argument for making Frances a heroine but she was a bit of a victim of the society she was born into and her fight against that was fascinating.

I found it interesting but was a bit annoyed about the way she was saying Frances was so brave & good etc, she seemed to forget that she had admitted to murder! Also she seemed shocked that her ancestor had been sentanced to being hung drawn & quartered, as that happened to loads of people, including innocent ones, in Tudor times

I'm with Asa, I really enjoyed it. I have Norfolk/Suffolk Howards but no connection, I'm sure.

I was fascinated by the politics of the times and do have a grudging admiration for Frances' refusal to be used a a political tool. And for demanding a divorce. That was very brave in such times. Not so admiring of what she did next, obviously, but she could have been executed if the secret came out.

I'd have loved to have an ancestor like William Lord Russell, so involved and commited to justice and against corruption in high places.

My other thought is - what a cheap episode this must have been to make!

She hardly needed to move from her computer, all this info is online and even though she did touch the actual papers, there really couldn't have been much cost to the Beeb for this one.

OC

I agree with Gwynne, Asa & Lynn, I enjoyed it as well.
It was more of a programme about British history than the usual WDYTYA programmes which deal with specific family history, but this was Celia's family history. I would love to find out that I was related to such a fascinating historical figure, but sadly there's not much chance of that!

I have found that this series of WDYTYA is very 'samey' (is that a word Gwynne? ;)) and not as interesting generally as previous series. Maybe this is because I'm more experienced in researching my own family history now than when the first series was transmitted, as are we all, so find their research too easy & obvious and full of assumptions. I realise that it is primarily an entertainment programme, but it does make it seem research is easy and that original records are easily accessible to all and this has become more obvious with each successive series.

I have noticed that in a few, the "celebrity" seems to have family members who already know a lot of the information, so there didn't seem to be much research involved on the BBC's part.

On the paper tree that was shown, was the top person John Neville and was he one of the Warwick Nevilles?

I've managed to find it on iPlayer, Lynn (time 06:30 if anyone else wants to look at it) and yes, the top person is John Nevill, Marquess of Montagu, who married Isabel Inglethorpe. I have no idea whether he was one of the Warwick Nevilles though!

Thanks Kate :)

Just checked, he was brother to the the Earl of Warwick "the kingmaker"

Link to the unseen footage, which includes some checking of that family tree:

http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazi.../footage/13852

Sorry to say that the unseen footage is pretty boring too!