Calling Olde Crone! Calling Olde Crone!

[Merry]

I imagined Joseph and Hannah would have married at Oldham Rd Congregational Church in Miles Platting (as the marriage was 'Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended'), but the entries for that are on Lancs OPC and there's no record for them. Maybe they married at the register office? I feel Joseph will have said James Holden was his father.

[Olde Crone]

Yes, they married at the register office, according to lancsbmd. I see from my tree notes that I was going to send for his marriage cert but I don't think I did in the end. I expect he did put James as his father. According to my father, James senior was knocking Ellen about and sometime after 1881 and before 1888 (Ellen died) the boys got together and threw him out. I wonder if Ellen told Joseph that James was not his father at this point.

I have trawled lan-opc for any mention of James Whittaker, brick setter but the only mentions of brick setter are their fathers, lol. However, some of them lived in Oldham, which is where Ellen was in 1851, housekeeper to a doctor called James Murray - and yes, I checked to see if there was a baptism under that name!

I got very excited, thought I had found an adult baptism for Joseph Grimshaw Holden, but it was his son, how confusing, that son died and was replaced by Joseph Foden Holden.

So frustrating! I do think you are into something though.

OC

[kiterunner]

Originally Posted by Olde Crone

I have trawled lan-opc for any mention of James Whittaker, brick setter but the only mentions of brick setter are their fathers, lol. However, some of them lived in Oldham, which is where Ellen was in 1851, housekeeper to a doctor called James Murray - and yes, I checked to see if there was a baptism under that name!

Isn't it Joseph Whittaker, brick setter?

[Merry]

lol I didn't notice that!

[Olde Crone]

On gawd, time for bed. I spent two hours on that.

OC

[kiterunner]

There is a Joseph Whittaker, bricklayer, in Crumpsall on the 1841 census age 50, with wife Ann age 50, and son Joseph jr age 15 (i.e. 15-19), also a bricklayer:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ce&pId=6215096

They are presumably the same couple whose daughter Maria was baptised in 1817 at Blackley, and Maria Whittaker married in 1837 giving her father's name as Joseph Whittaker, bricksetter. Joseph jr was baptised in 1822.

On the 1851 census Joseph sr is still in Crumpsall, age 65, and still a bricklayer:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...e&pId=11698813

I'm not sure whether this is Joseph jr or a different Joseph, bricklayer:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...e&pId=11698979

[Merry]

I looked at these yesterday, but have got a bit further today. It hadn't occurred to me they might be father and son!

The marriage image for Joseph Henry Whittaker and Ann Cartwright is on FMP (St John's Deansgate) in 1845 (checked mmn for dau Emily Harrison Whittaker). He was recorded as a bricklayer and so was his father, also Joseph.

Here are the two men in 1861:

The older Joseph:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...n&pId=14545915

and the younger one:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...n&pId=14545761

Both still in Crumpsall, both still with their wives (which I realise means nothing!)

Yesterday I felt the older man was maybe too old and the younger too successful to say he was a bricksetter (isn't that a labourer who takes the bricks in and out of the kiln?). However, I'm coming round to them, now that Kate has shown the ref to bricksetting on Maria's marriage entry that I hadn't seen before.

Oh, I've just had an idea.......

[Merry]

My idea was a failure!

Joseph jr died 15 Jan 1897. No will, just administration to son, Joseph Henry Whittaker, salesman.

Joseph sr died in 1861:

WHITTAKER, JOSEPH 79
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 202

(Cheetham sub-district from Lancs BMD)

[Olde Crone]

Thank you both. Looking at my jottings from last night, I did actually start with Joseph, but later switched to James, probably because I sidetracked to look for James Murray.

I wonder why Joseph didn't marry Ellen?

I have messaged my third cousin to see if he knows an exact birth date for Joseph but I don't hold out much hope.

OC

[Merry]

For anyone like me, who doesn't know much about Manchester geography, this is useful:

A map of the sub-districts in the city (I know it says 1871 on it, but there were almost no changes in Manchester district between 1837 and 1874):

https://luna.manchester.ac.uk/luna/s...~415027~220732

Joseph Whittaker b 1854, son of Ellen Grimshaw was born in St George sub-district according to Lancs OPC. Crumpsall, where the bricklayers were living, was in Cheetham sub-district, so close together, but OC's Ellen was in Oldham in 1851.

I'm not too clear on where Manchester cathedral is (where Jos was baptised), but I'm guessing maybe either Deansgate or Market Street sub-districts? I presume therefore, that the baby was brought to the 'no questions asked' busy cathedral rather than the local parish church for a reason?!