Calling Olde Crone! Calling Olde Crone!

[Merry]

It's been too hot to do much today and so I found myself reading one of your old threads when I was actually looking for something else!

I just wondered about this.....

WHITTAKER, JOSEPH mmn GRIMSHAW
GRO Reference: 1854 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 284

There don't seem to be any other registrations for siblings of the above. (Blackburn births Whittaker/Grimshaw are a different couple)

Here's the above child's baptism:

Manchester Cathedral, 24 Sep 1854, Joseph, son of Joseph and Ellen Whittaker, born 10 Aug 1854. Abode, Manchester, Trade, bricksetter.

I have looked for a marriage for this couple to no avail. I've tried church marriages where there is a Grimshaw father included in case this Ellen (Eleanor etc) had been married before. Still nothing. I've looked hardest at marriages immediately before the birth of Joseph (any bridal surname) and not found anything in Lancashire that I couldn't eliminate. I've looked at all the Manchester marriages between about 1848 and 1861 where the groom is Jos* Whit*aker to see if any of them look like they might be the same man recorded as Joseph's father. Nothing likely.

I've looked for the couple in 1861 or any appearance of their son separately. Nothing. I looked at deaths and there are none in Manchester that fit for the son or mother before 1861 (but of course they could have moved!). I've looked on FMP for men named Joseph Whit*aker with the word brick* in their entry but not found anything that looks like the same man.

Of course there are loads of other possibilities that would eliminate this couple and their son......

...but if none of the possibilities happened, could this child be Joseph Holden??!

[Olde Crone]

Ooh Merry, you woke me up, lol.

Well now. That is really quite interesting and oddly, I was doing a quick sweep just last week for Joseph. (To no avail).

You may recall that my grandmother was a Whittaker who married a Holden. Of course, Whittaker is a very common name in Lancashire, but still.... (Her Whittakers were jewellers and painters and decorators).

I've never been able to fix on a date of birth for Joseph, my only living contact doesn't know, although we agree he is consistent in his year of birth (1854) and the place (Manchester).

Dear me, just as I had completely given up on Joseph, you pull this out of your hat, just like you did with James Holden's first wife!

OC

[Olde Crone]

Hmm. How much is this worth?

Mr Joseph Holden, grocer, Roll member, admitted age 17 on 27th May 1872 (Oldham Rd Congregational Church). This would make him born in 1853 of course.

OC

[kiterunner]

It would make him born in 1854-5, OC.

[Olde Crone]

Thank you Kate, I scribbled my workings on a bit of paper, turned it round to do another column and went from 13 to 12 to 13 again!

OC

[Merry]

Joseph is with James and Ellen Holden in 1861, 71 and 1881. In each case his age fits with a birthday between Apr 1854 and Apr 1855. Then your Congregational Church record suggests between May 1854 and May 1855. 10 Aug 1854 fits all these!

I wasn't sure which entry was him after 1881? (and I don't know when he died, or if he married etc etc)

[Merry]

lol I've just realised, he's the one with middle name Grimshaw!!

[Merry]

lol I see, just two more years and we would have seen him and his date of birth on the 1939 Register!

[Olde Crone]

Yes, he started to use the name Grimshaw when Ellen died - all the boys were estranged from James Holden senior by then.

I've been racking my brains to try to think of something that might have his birth date on it. My father said they were all apprenticed to a grocer but I think this might not have been a formal apprenticeship. They all finished up working for the Cooperative Society which I don't think did apprenticeships.

OC

[Olde Crone]

He married Hannah Foden in 1881 and they moved to Leeds. They had four children, only one of whom married and had children.

OC