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Old 04-02-15, 15:38
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Default Giles Theyer

I hesitated to put this up as it seems hideously complicated to me, but that's partly because I've been staring at it for a couple of weeks and getting nowhere. Any help gratefully received - even if it's to agree it's not possible to get any further.

I actually know quite a lot about Giles Theyer, depite not having a baptism or burial for him, but I'll try to keep it brief here. He was probably buried in 1774 at Christ Church, Newgate Street, London (aka Greyfriars), but their burial registers were lost in the blitz and are unlikely to have given an age in any case. His apprenticeship as a joiner in 1710 would indicate a birth around 1695/6 and the indenture names his father as Giles Theyer of Beckenham, Kent, a farmer.

A Giles Theyer married Margaret Salmon in 1682 in Bromley, Kent and Beckenham is in the borough of Bromley. There are no online indexes for Beckenham PRs. The LDS have filmed them and placed them on Familysearch, but they are only available to church members (presumably due to licensing restrictions).

Problem one: One of Giles Theyer junior's apprentices (in 1742) was William Salmon, son of Thomas, late of St Ann Westminster, deceased joiner. There's a baptism for William in 1728 at St Anne Soho, parents Thomas & Elizabeth and a potential marriage for Thomas to an Elizabeth Farrar in 1718 in Westminster. I assume there's some connection with Margaret Salmon, but can't find it.

Problem Two: Samuel Theyer's will of 1725 says he is a gentleman of Stoke Newington and does not mention a wife or children. It does however mention his kinswoman Margaret Theyer, widow, late wife of Giles Theyer, late of Beckenham in Kent, deceased. This is a recent find and it mentions her son Giles and proves I'm on the right lines (hooray). There's also reference to her son John and daughter Margaret, neither of whom I'd heard of before and I know nothing more about them. There's also a kinswoman Elizabeth Flower of Stepney, widow and her only daughter (not named). There are a few candidates to be Elizabeth Flower and I can't work that out, although there's a 1747 will of one who is formerly of Mile End Old Town which might be her. She does not mention a daughter, but names a brother Harward Martin and her sister, his wife Joanna, plus a sister Mary Manning, wife of Benjamin, gentleman. Harward Martin married Joanna Fairhorn in 1724 with the consent of her guardian, Benjamin Manning. He married Mary Harwell in 1723.

There are many other people mentioned in Samuel's will, but none are indentified as kin. Of particular note is Christopher Stephenson of Hackney, gent, who gets a considerable sum, and his granddaughter Charlotte Aldcroft (daughter of Sarah Stephenson and Charles Aldcroft).

I can't make any of these names stick together in a meaningful way. Do you think Samuel would have said explicitly if Giles senior was his late brother or does his use of kinswoman to describe Margaret imply a more distant relationship ?

In searching for Giles (Gyles, Gile, Theyer, Theyre, Thayer, Thayre, Thoyer, Thair, Their and even Floyer and Shoyer), I came across another London family with the name Thayer. They appear to descend from a Humphrey from Essex, but one of them, Samuel has a 1721 will which asks that he be buried at Christ Church. Possibly a coincidence, but it has added to my confusion. So much for keeping it brief - sorry.
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Old 04-02-15, 19:52
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I think kinswoman does imply a more distant relationship than sister-in-law but I wouldn't like to say for definite. I had one like that in some of the wills I was looking at recently for my tree and she was a cousin of some kind, married to another cousin.

You can view those Kent records on FamilySearch if you actually go to a FamilySearch Centre, despite not being a member of their church.

I'll have a look and see if I can find anything to help with those people...
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Old 04-02-15, 20:22
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FamilySearch has the baptism of an Ann Thair 6 Jan 1669 at St Botolph Without Aldgate, London, parents Giles and Mary. And an Elizabeth Thyer 6 Oct 1667 same church, same parents' names. Then there is a Thomas Thayer born 2 Mar 1663, baptised 6 Mar 1663 at St Katherine Creechurch, London, parents Giles and Elizabeth. And a Mary Thayer or Thaer baptised 16 Feb 1671 St Botolph Without Aldgate, parents Gyles and Mary. Not much help at the moment I know. Got to go and eat now.
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Old 04-02-15, 20:26
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Rick, we are going to Kew on Saturday. There is a Lds facility there, If you'd like us to look?
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Old 04-02-15, 21:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
Rick, we are going to Kew on Saturday. There is a Lds facility there, If you'd like us to look?
I was just about to take you up on that, but on closer inspection they have not filmed the whole lot, just back to 1718

It would be great if you could look at the image associated with this record though.....https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJD2-CFM3 She could be the daughter of Giles junior, so witness names would be great.

Very kind of you to offer - I really appreciate it !!
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Old 04-02-15, 21:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiterunner View Post
I think kinswoman does imply a more distant relationship than sister-in-law but I wouldn't like to say for definite. I had one like that in some of the wills I was looking at recently for my tree and she was a cousin of some kind, married to another cousin.

You can view those Kent records on FamilySearch if you actually go to a FamilySearch Centre, despite not being a member of their church.

I'll have a look and see if I can find anything to help with those people...
Yes, in another will kinsman turned out to be 1st cousin, once removed. The nearest FHC to me is a nightmare to get to, but it seems I got over-excited and they only filmed the BTs from 1718, which is no good to me.
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Old 04-02-15, 21:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiterunner View Post
FamilySearch has the baptism of an Ann Thair 6 Jan 1669 at St Botolph Without Aldgate, London, parents Giles and Mary. And an Elizabeth Thyer 6 Oct 1667 same church, same parents' names. Then there is a Thomas Thayer born 2 Mar 1663, baptised 6 Mar 1663 at St Katherine Creechurch, London, parents Giles and Elizabeth. And a Mary Thayer or Thaer baptised 16 Feb 1671 St Botolph Without Aldgate, parents Gyles and Mary. Not much help at the moment I know. Got to go and eat now.
I had seen them, but thank you. Mary's name was Boulton (a widow) and the one she married was a gunsmith born about 1626. There's a Giles in Westminster between 1678 and 1710 paying tax in Leicester Fields (now Leicester Square) and he could possibly be Giles senior.
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Old 04-02-15, 22:17
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Will do!
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Old 05-02-15, 08:08
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A couple of possible baptisms for Samuel:
Samuel Thaire baptised 17 Feb 1678 St Dunstan Stepney, son of Samuel and Ann - but there is a Samuel Thare, son of Anne, buried 4 May 1683.
Samuel Thyer baptised 14 Dec 1675 Christ Church Greyfriars Newgate, son of Samuel and Hannah - but he has brothers Humphrey, John, Thomas, so is the son of the Samuel whose will was proved 1721 and you would think he would mention his brothers in his will, so probably not this one either!
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Old 05-02-15, 11:18
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A site called Connected Histories has an entry from May 1644 "17. 133. Petition of Giles Theyer to the Committees for the Parliament. That he being possessor of a team in Beckenham was obliged to disburse 5 l . 3 s . 4 d . to redeem his team of horses,"
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