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  #1  
Old 09-01-20, 23:31
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Default Grand nieces

I ordered some wills for my Christmas present and received a few back yesterday. Looking at the will of what I thought was my 4g grandmother has me confused.

She leaves money to 4 grandsons from her son John, who fit in my tree but leaves money to my 2g grandmother and her sister but calls them grandnieces, not granddaughters, which I think they should be.

This was in 1881, did they use the terms interchangeably back then or have I made a mistake in my tree?

I'm not putting up names yet as there is other new information I want to follow up from the will as well which might or might not help with some things.
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Old 09-01-20, 23:55
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What part of the country, Kit?

I have never heard granddaughters referred to as grandnieces, but it might be a dialect term in some parts of the country. (I would usually use the term great niece, rather than grand niece)
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Old 10-01-20, 00:02
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I have seen "niece" used to mean "any female relative" but only in much older wills than that, i.e. centuries before. I wouldn't expect that kind of usage in 1881.
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  #4  
Old 10-01-20, 01:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
What part of the country, Kit?
Somerset.

I've never heard of it being used this way either.

If my 2g grandmother really is her grandniece then I have some work to do.
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Old 11-01-20, 05:38
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Help Please.

Mary Venn died 10/4/1881.
She left a will. Proceeds went to :
her son John Venn and his sons George, Robert, William and James.
her "grand nieces" Mary Ann and Rosa Thorne
her daughters Elizabeth Venner and Maria Lyon.

I believed Mary was the wife of James Venn.

James Venn and his wife Mary had the following children.
1. Jane b 1824 Morpeth Devon
2. Mary Ann bap 1826 Brompton Regis Somerset
3. Harriett Elizabeth bap 1829 Brompton Regis who I believe married John Lovering Venner as Elizabeth Harriet in 1851 (this is daughter Elizabeth in the will)
4. John bap 1832 Brompton Regis Somerset. He married Charlotte Whitefield in 1856. Besides the sons who received something in Mary's will they also had daughters Mary Ann, Elizabeth and Christiana Taylor Venn.
5. Caroline bap 1834 Kingsbrompton, married James Thorne and died 1863. She is the mother of Mary Ann and Rosa Thorne who were the grand nieces in the will.
6. William bap 1837 Brompton Regis
7. Maria bap 1842 Brompton Regis. She is supposed to have married Mr Lyon but I can't find the marriage. I've tried looking for Lyon as her second marriage but can't get that to work either.

I believe Mary, who wrote the will, was Mary Taylor and she married James in 1823 at Morpeth, Devon. Mary's DOB varies over the census but ranges from 1798-1801.

I can't establish parents for Mary but I believe she had a brother, James who married Agnes Crocker and a sister, Christiana who married William Emett. I'm not sure what happened to Agnes but she and James seem to live apart in the 2 census before James' death. Mary was executor for Christiana's will, which the Will people seem to have lost.

I haven't done a lot with James' family. His parents were Robert and Elizabeth nee Curdel. They had a children John, William, (who also had a wife called Mary), Elizabeth, Mary and Matthew. I haven't killed any of these children off and have only married William off.

John, his children, Caroline and her children and Elizabeth Venner all fit very nicely as the children of James and Mary Venn. If I'm wrong please be nice. I'm fond of Caroline, my 3g grandmother.

There are lots of holes so I'm going to see if I can close anymore. Thanks for any help anyone can give.
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Old 11-01-20, 08:33
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When did Mary Venn make her will?
Did friends or solicitors witness it?
Do you know what happened to the children not mentioned in the will?
With a Mary Ann and a Maria, it is unlikely, but possible that Mary Ann married Mr Lyon.
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Old 11-01-20, 09:34
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Relying on transcriptions, I couldn't see anything wrong with Caroline bap 1834 Kings Brompton, dau of James and Mary, marrying James Thorne and being the mother of Mary Ann and Rosa Thorne. They look like Mary's grandchildren to me. The only thing I could think of was if James Venn had married twice, to two Marys, and so this Mary who left the will was a step-mother, not bio mother, but still the relationship in the will is wrong, so I don't see that there's much of a case for that.

Maria is more interesting...

Like you, I couldn't find a Maria Lyon to fit. However, I found an Elizabeth Lyon on the 1911 census. She is aged 69, says she is a widow and was born Somerset, Kings Brompton, so everything correct except her first name!

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...nSearchResults

Her son on the above census was Joseph Lyon aged 35 b Deeping St James, Lincolnshire. His birth reg should be in Bourn District, but (after I'd eliminated a wrong Lyon reg in 1873) I found this:

VENN, JOSEPH VENN LYON
mmn -
GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in BOURN Volume 07A Page 396

In 1881 this Joseph Venn and his mother, Elizabeth (still not Maria!) are living with widower, John Hill, and Elizabeth is his housekeeper (place of birth not known). Joseph and Elizabeth are listed as Vernon on Ancestry, but looking at the page (Joseph's entry is on the following page) I can see why!

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...3197_3202-0639

On the 1891 census Joseph (now) Lyon is a boarder in the same household he was in before, but Elizabeth isn't there, just widower John Hill, one of his daughters and a grandson.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...618.1572732679

When Joseph married in 1899 (as Lyon) his father's details have a line drawn through.

If you have FMP it's here:

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/reco...2F00246026%2F1

I can't find a baptism for Joseph (only looked for Venn), nor Elizabeth in 1891 or 1901. (I looked at women born +/-5 of 1842, born Somerset living in Lincolnshire, with any name, looking for someone who had some part of their name that I recognised, but didn't find anyone).

Given her age, surname and birthplace in 1911 I feel it's very likely Joseph's mother is Maria Venn and that she called herself Elizabeth for some reason. I can't find any marriage for Venn to Lyon with any first name, but I guess whatever she called herself, she didn't ever marry Mr Lyon.
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  #8  
Old 11-01-20, 10:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
When did Mary Venn make her will?
Did friends or solicitors witness it?
Do you know what happened to the children not mentioned in the will?
With a Mary Ann and a Maria, it is unlikely, but possible that Mary Ann married Mr Lyon.
The will was made 22 Jan 1881. She died 10 April 1881.

I've worked out, since I posted, Jane married James Griffith and died 1866. She had children but I'm struggling to find them after 1871 as James died between 1871 and 1881.

Maria Venn is the witness for Caroline's marriage to James Thorne in 1858.

No idea yet what happened to William.
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Old 11-01-20, 10:40
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It sounds as though "grandnieces" is a mistake then.
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  #10  
Old 11-01-20, 10:46
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Merry, this would be my first relative in Lincolnshire. I've tried to find a baptism for Joseph Lyon or Venn in Somerset or Lincolnshire without success. I also looked for a probate calendar entry for an Elizabeth Lyon after 1911 but there was no one suitable.
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