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  #11  
Old 13-08-19, 22:15
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Yes, wondered why Dorothy died in Wales. Perhaps she was convalescing! TB?

So strange. The Holdens must have been close to this Bibby family as you wouldn't normally offer a random stranger a place in your family grave and a burial is normally quickly arranged anyway. Nor would you get in touch with a passing acquaintance to ask if they had a spare grave plot.

Another puzzle to add to all the other Holden puzzles.

OC
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  #12  
Old 13-08-19, 23:20
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Maybe the first cert you should get is Dorothy's birth or death cert, rather than the possible parents' marriage cert.
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  #13  
Old 14-08-19, 09:34
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Yes, I agree. Probably Dorothy's birth certificate would be best, in case her parents are not who we expect!

I've just deleted a very long post detailing the life of Leonard Bibby b 10 Mar 1905 at Gorton (his dob is on his baptism record) who I thought might be Martha's husband (just in case it came in useful later on!). He moved to Hertfordshire, married Gwendoline North in the late 1950s and died in 1970. She died in 2000.

I deleted the long post because I've just found the 1905 Leonard in 1939 married to Mary b 16 May 1905, living in Luton Beds. No one else in their household. There are no marriages for a Leonard Bibby to a Mary 1937-1939, so I assumed (lol) he was never Martha's husband.

However, when I look at marriages for Leonard Bibby 1922-1939 there are still none to a Mary.

Now I'm thinking this 1905 Leonard could still be a candidate for being Martha's husband as there is this marriage:

Leonard Bibby Jan 1954 Jan-Feb-Mar Luton Bedfordshire spouse Mary W Davenport Or Gannon

There's a Mary Gannon (no middle initial) marrying Arthur Davenport in 1924 in Manchester and there's a couple of Mary Gannon births in the right Q in 1905 - one in Manchester. So, if Leonard and Mary were living together in 1939, not married, then Leonard could still have previously been Martha's husband.

Mary Gannon didn't die until 1963 in Luton. Hopefully she and Leonard were divorced as he married Gwendoline North in 1959!

Now this post is just as long as it was originally, but with less detail! lol
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  #14  
Old 14-08-19, 13:06
maggie_4_7 maggie_4_7 is offline
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There is an online tree named Bibby Tree but it is private and the only information I can see is that Martha Holden was born in Clitheroe, Lancashire in 1905, on the GRO this is the entry:

Name : HOLDEN, MARTHA MMS: WALMSLEY
GRO Reference: 1905 D Quarter in CLITHEROE Volume 08E Page 255

Mother's maiden surname Walmsley.

Edit to add possible marriage of possible Martha's parents but it was cancelled so no father of Henry!

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/...ff=&ml_rpos=13

Name: Henry Holden
Gender: Male
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 3 Jun 1899
Parish: Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Search Photos: Search for 'Blackburn' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Spouse: Margaret Hannah Walmsley
Register Type: Parish Register

More confusion I think there is another marriage but Margaret Hannah is now a Whalley unless it is another Margaret Hannah, coincidence!

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/...off=&ml_rpos=3


Name: Henry Holden
Gender: Male
Age: 24
Birth Year: abt 1876
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 14 Apr 1900
Parish: Blackburn, St Matthew, Lancashire, England
Search Photos: Search for 'Blackburn, St Matthew' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Spouse: Margaret Annie Whalley
Spouse Age: 22
Father: William Holden
Spouse Father: Edward Whalley
Register Type: Parish Register

Last edited by maggie_4_7; 14-08-19 at 13:23.
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  #15  
Old 14-08-19, 13:28
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Thanks Kate, yes, I think you are right, I need to get Dorothy's bc first as this is looking like the usual beggar's muddle.

Merry - that's interesting, thankyou for trudging through all that! There are Davenports on this side of the tree but not seeing a direct connection yet. I have just thought of a very tenuous connection to Wales which may of course be completely irrelevant. Joseph Grimshaw Holden's eldest son Joseph Foden Holden,(and brother of Pamela and Harry) had a scandalous divorce in about 1934 (oh the shame) and in 1938 he remarried one Edna Bell, a widow whose first husband died in Wales in 1933 and was the son of a Doctor. It still doesn't explain the Bibbys though.

Maggie, that's an interesting find! I do have a hobby tree for Darwen which goes sideways into Clitheroe etc. Off for a look. Thans for the tip off.

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  #16  
Old 14-08-19, 15:22
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Maggie, looking at the 1911 census, the father of that Martha is called John Holden, so I think this must be the marriage:

Marriages Sep 1899 (>99%)

Ffelan Maurice Clitheroe 8e 679
HOLDEN John Clitheroe 8e 679
MILES Charlotte Clitheroe 8e 679
Walmsley Mary Ann Clitheroe 8e 679

In 1911 the dad is John Holden born about 1868 in Aighton. He's a farmer and a widower.

All the children in the following census household have mmn Walmsley.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true
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  #17  
Old 14-08-19, 15:28
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The father of John b 1868 is Michael Holden b about 1839 in Bailey Lancs.

Of course who is to say the Bibby tree has the correct Martha!
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  #18  
Old 14-08-19, 22:31
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So are we saying your Holdens paid for this grave when Dorothy died in 1936 and then were buried there themselves - in Pamela's case almost 40 years later? What happened to their unmarried sister Ellen?
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  #19  
Old 14-08-19, 23:50
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Sorry, have been in and out all day.

First in the grave was Harry Holden, then Dorothy Bibby, then eventually Pamela. Nellie died in 1940 and is buried with her parents. All the Holden men were Masons and I wondered if that might have been something to do with it but it still comes back to why you would offer a space in your family grave to someone unless they were a relative.I

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  #20  
Old 15-08-19, 00:12
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NOOOOO!!!!

The Harry and Pamela Holden buried with Dorothy Bibby are not MY Harry and Pamela Holden.

My red faced apologies to you all and I am so sorry to have wasted your time.

*slinks off thread*

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