MMF George Spence - which one, where?

[Janet]

All very interesting, thank you, Uncle John. And needless to say, thank you, Merry, for that tidbit and all the rest!

Thank you for the Stamford Bridge family, Anne. That William is a butcher, and I know there is a whole family of Spences who are butchers. I had a brief exchange with a woman researching them, and at that time we didn't really think they were any of mine but I wonder if there could be a Stamford Bridge connection after all.

So indeed, Merry, why does George say on the 1851 that he was born in Stamford Bridge? It's 22 miles east of Knaresborough. He's a young man, recently married, he's got a job as groom in the household of Jane B. Wilkinson. He doesn't want to be associated with his own immediate family of labourers, and the butchers look better to his employer?

In 1861 they had moved on to service in the Kitson household, still childless. (?!?) But curiously, they are again next door to some Wilkinsons. Joseph B. Wilkinson is at 75 Little Woodhouse and James Kitson is at 76 Little Woodhouse.

And mustn't neglect to thank Kite for looking, and especially for verifying Merry's really exciting find of George's signature on another marriage cert.

Being called for dinner! Bedtime for you guys. Back later.

[Janet]

Originally Posted by kiterunner

Okay, looks as though they're talking about the Bramley family who have their George still with them in 1851, so that marriage witness bit is probably a red herring, sorry.

I'm glad you saw that, Kite, because now that I see what you're looking at, I think that's my cousin's tree and that's another thing I'll have to mention to him if he doesn't figure it out himself now that he's agreed that the George in Bramley is not ours.

[Janet]

By the way, one of my first glimpses of George Spence and wife Jane Gardner came by Googling their names together, which brought up this interesting monograph:
http://fretwell.kangaweb.com.au/pdfs/Ann%20Newton.pdf
They're on page 2, in the 1861 census list. A fresh look at it hasn't given me any spectacular new insights, though.

[Merry]

Did you read about the trial involving Arthur Octavius Kitson? What a scandal! (sorry, I was distracted!!)

[Janet]

Well, well, well.

For those who may be bored or titillated, the story is here:
http://fretwell.kangaweb.com.au/pdfs...s%20Kitson.pdf

Now, this is not finding me my George Spence's origins yet, but that's very interesting and it spurred me on to run a search of

Spence site:fretwell.kangaweb.com.au

And in there I find a whole lot of Spence family connections explained. I recognize some of them from trawling Ancestry. There might not be a single Spence in there related to me, but it might help at least in eliminating things.

Other than that, last night I was playing with this, trying to get a hint where to look for likely Spences:

Where was George's first marriage? at the RO in York
Where was his sister[?] Elizabeth's marriage? Parish church in the parish of Leeds
Where did he baptize his kids?
Ann Elizabeth 5 Jan 1862 St George, Leeds residence Hyde Terrace coachman
Louisa 15 May 1864 St George, Leeds residence 11 Hyde Terrace servant
Kate 1867 perhaps Chapeltown or Hunslet?? or not baptized?
Sarah Jane b. 29 Aug 1869 bap 17 Apr 1870 Buslingthorpe [=Leeds St Michael, Woodhouse Carr] residence Woods' Buildings coachman
Where did John and Elizabeth Boynton baptize their kids?
Have to look. EDIT: She went to West Hartlepool with her husband.

I'll probably be dragged out of here by my ear shortly.

Oh, and then there are these notes I made to myself a while ago.

In 1871 census (conducted on 2 April) they now had Ann 9, Louisa 7, Kate 3 and Sarah Jane 1 (our Sallie).
Sometime soon after that Jane died, registered in Apr-May-Jun 1871.

I don't know what ever happened to Ann, Louisa and Kate.

Possible Ann on 1881, age 15 in York:
Class: RG11; Piece: 4725; Folio: 20; Page: 3; GSU roll: 1342142.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...=&pid=25962087

Possible Louisa on 1901, age 36 in Harrogate:
Class: RG13; Piece: 4052; Folio: 8; Page: 6.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...=&pid=25808277

Possible Louisa death, age 75, in Leeds:
Louisa Spence Jan-Feb-Mar 1940 Leeds Yorkshire West Riding 9b 579
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...=&pid=28575199

Possible Kate birth:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...=&pid=51989578
Kate Louisa Spence Jul-Aug-Sep 1868 Leeds Yorkshire - West Riding 9b 413

Possible Kate death from an Ancestry tree:
died Jan. 1874 Age: 6
Kate Spence abt 1868 Jan-Feb-Mar 1874 Leeds Yorkshire West Riding 9b 391

EDIT: Hang on, we've got some Wilkinsons next door again. This time they're next door to where Ann is boarding in York in 1881. And William Wilkinson is a General Carter. Dunno. Could be a school of red herrings just swimming by.

[Merry]

Where was George's first marriage? at the RO in York

I thought that was quite unusual - for a first marriage to be at a RO. Might be because one or both of them was non-conformist, but that would be quite unusual amongst the servant classes as it might restrict your employment.

Where was his sister[?] Elizabeth's marriage? Headingley

I'm not at all convinced she is G's sister! I'l stick with "relation" lol!

Was her marriage at Headingley? I thought it was at the parish church in Leeds - the same place at George married the second time. Certainly the same person had written out the marriage cert and it was the same person conducting the marriage as well.

[Janet]

Ooops, sorry, you're so right. Parish church in the parish of Leeds. I got myself confused with her residence. I've changed it.

[Merry]

Re the children of Wm and Elizabeth.....these are the people I was looking for....

George abt 1828
Jesse abt 1831 York
William abt 1836 York
Elizabeth abt 1837 York

But this was all I could find.....

Births Mar 1838
SPENCE Elizabeth York 23 610

and

Name: Elizabeth Spence
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 31 Dec 1837
Baptism/Christening Place: ALL SAINTS NORTH STREET,YORK,YORK,ENGLAND
Father's Name: William Spence
Mother's Name: Elizabeth

I tried looking for the others without the mother's name in case they had a different mother, but other than the Knaresborough bap in your initial post I couldn't see anything helpful.

I do wonder if Jesse was a figment of the enumerator's imagination? There's no marriage or death for a Jesse Spence.

[Merry]

Didn't know if you had seen this, Janet?

The Leeds Mercury (Leeds, England), Tuesday, November 16, 1869

GARDNER - Nov. 14th, at the house of her son-in-law, George Spence, aged 70, Elizabeth, relict of Thos. Gardner, of Coxwold.

[Janet]

Wahoo! Thanks, Merry. That can only help.