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  #21  
Old 27-04-20, 21:26
Olde Crone Olde Crone is online now
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Ooh, you little star macbev! That would be really lovely, thankyou so much.

Sending you a pm.

OC
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  #22  
Old 28-04-20, 03:35
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Sent....probate and will, in two batches
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  #23  
Old 28-04-20, 10:21
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Thankyou so much for that! The will has thrown up several queries, haha, including the names of children I didn't know he hd. I did wonder if he had been married before when I was researching him.

Also, I hadn't realised that his farm in Australia was called Larivane and I think it must be this Larivane the biography refers to when it says it was finally sold by descendants, not the farm in the I oM.

Lots of lovely info to get my teeth into, I'm so happy! Can't wait for the library to reopen so I can print it off for my records.

OC
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  #24  
Old 28-04-20, 10:35
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Are you able to access Australian Ancestry records? There is a good deal more relating to the birth of the children, who seem to have scattered around the various States in Australia. If you can't access the records, I am happy to look them up for you. You may also get good info if you use Trove (free digitised Aus newspapers) https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/


OH has a Gould ancestor who came to Aus from Bucks ca 1850, also seeking his fortune on the Bendigo goldfields and ended up scraping a living on a smallish farm, which was likewise named after the English estate of his grandfather....lots of English emigrants clung to the memories of their homeland in that manner.
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  #25  
Old 30-04-20, 08:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olde Crone View Post
Yes, there was a James. I have Ann 1818, John 1821-1901, Ellin 1823, Elizabeth 1825 (prob died young) William 1828-1860, Thomas 1830,Elizabeth Jane 1833, Benjamin 1835, Joseph Edwards (sic)1837 and James 1840.OC

William Sayle became a butcher. He married Matilda Scott in 1859 (she has an interesting history which can be followed on Trove). He died of pulmonary phthisis at his home in Blackwood st North Melbourne aged 32 years. I have found his will, if you would like that sent.
Thomas (probably) died in a mining accident in 1870 near Egerton Victoria. The news report stated he had relations in Ballarat, and that 'he is brother to Mr John Sayle, squatter, Lillydaye, nr Melbourne.'

James (possibly) died 1905 (suffering from hydatids) in the Berima District Hospital in NSW. Described as a tramp, he was buried as a pauper. The NSW death reg states his father was William, his mother, Ann.


John's issue:
1. Thomas Maunsell seems to have been in a droving partnership with his brother Reginald. He was declared insolvent in Palmerston (now Darwin) in 1888. Reginald took all the horses, outfit and cash to the Kimberley, Western Australia, leaving Thomas destitute. This may have been a clever ploy, as I later picked them up gold mining in Mt Magnet WA. Thomas must have returned East as he d.14.09.1943 at 50 Bowen st Camberwell
2. Reginald Athol was farewelled from Mt Magnet in 1900, heading East on the train. The newspaper said he started out overlanding as a drover, from the Clarence river NSW taking cattle through Queensland, into the Northern Territory, then on to the Kimberley gold rush, the other gold rushes in the NW of WA, then to Mt Magnet. He must have returned to WA as he married Mary Jean Jeans 4.10.1905 at Fremantle. He died 16.07 1944 in Perth, WA. No children mentioned in the obit
3. Edith Ann married Jonathan Mackintosh Brooks 1905. She died 1943 Victoria

4. Mabel Laidlaw d. 18.06.1905 Palmerston (Darwin) N.T.
5. Gilbert Cooper m1. Jessy Janet Thompson17.02.1899 ; div.1905. Details of divorce reveal Gilbert spent two years and five months in the NT from 1899, where he worked as a butcher.
m2. Isabel Flora Stanley 1916 Victoria
d. 1941 Victoria
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  #26  
Old 30-04-20, 10:04
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Thanks again Macbev. I had found some of that but not all, I didn't find enough detail to be sure William was the butcher, nor that Thomas the drover was the right one. Yes, I would love William's will, thankyou!

I wonder why Thomas Maunsell doesn't show as John's son on any of the published biographies? There is only mention of "an unnamed son" which suggested a neonatal death to me.

Poor James. Wonder what went wrong there? Drink I suppose.

Thankyou again, I'm really enjoying myself! Ages since I've expanded this family, 15 years or more.

OC
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  #27  
Old 30-04-20, 12:44
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I can't be absolutely sure William the butcher is your man...but what I have found so far seems pretty convincing to me. Victoria Death Index has:
William Sayle;b. abt 1829;age: 31;Father:William; Mother: Ann Cleator;Reg yr:1860;Reg Place: Victoria; Reg No:10167

The newspaper states: On the 29th ult., at his home, Blackwood street, North Melbourne, of phthisis pulmonatis, Mr William Sayle, aged 32 years.
The electoral rolls show William Sayle, Blackwood street as a butcher, which is confirmed by the will. The will also makes mention of his brother John Sayle.



The Australian birth index does show a child born to John and Emma Jane in 1859, but it is not named - I thought it was likely a still birth, or early death. As best as I can understand the index, John's children, confirmed by his will:
1. Unnamed 1859 Hawthorn Victoria (MMN Cooper)

2. Edith Anne 1861, Victoria (MMN Cooper)

3. Thomas M(aunsell) 1864 Moama NSW (no MMN)

4. Percy Howard b abt 1863 Victoria (MMN Callingham)
d 1864 Moama NSW
5. Reginald Athol 1866 Moama NSW (no MMN)

6. Mabel Laidlaw 1867 Victoria (MMN Callingham)

7. John Lee 1869 Lilydale (MMN Callingham)

8. Gilbert Cooper , 1873 Lilydale (MMN Callingham)



I don't understand why Emma Jane is sometimes a Callingham and sometimes a Cooper. A nice little problem for you to solve.
John Sayle's employment as a stock agent for a large scale grazier in Victoria may account for his family's movement between NSW and Victoria, as shown by the birth places of his children.

The screen shots I took of William the butcher's will are pretty fuzzy. I'll try to get a better image before I send them off.


I've enjoyed snooping around your family too. Life in lockdown is pretty boring!
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  #28  
Old 30-04-20, 14:06
Olde Crone Olde Crone is online now
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Yes, I agree it's definitely my William, I didn't find all that info to link him to his parents.

I wonder if Thomas and Reginald were missed off the biography because there was no mother's name so the researcher couldn't be sure they were the same family. I also wonder if the researcher made the same mistake as me and assumed Palmerston was the one in New Zealand, ha ha and that is why "further descendants went to New Zealand" . I never was any good at geography.

OC
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  #29  
Old 30-04-20, 15:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olde Crone View Post
I also wonder if the researcher made the same mistake as me and assumed Palmerston was the one in New Zealand
OC
Easy mistake to make, if you were not aware that Darwin in the Northern Territory was originally called Palmerston. Plenty of Australians don't know that.

The land now occupied by the Northern Territory was part of colonial NSW from 1825 to 1863, except for a brief time from February to December 1846, when it was part of the short-lived colony of North Australia. The Northern Territory was part of South Australia from 1863 to 1911, then became the Territory we have today.
Consequently, the records relating to the area could be in any one of a number of archives.

It is possible the biographer was unaware that Reginald and Thomas headed into Western Australia..... we become invisible to folk in the Eastern States, even today
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  #30  
Old 10-05-20, 12:38
Olde Crone Olde Crone is online now
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Thankyou for William's will, Macbev. I appreciate it.

Something to do today, hurray, that isn't sudoku.

OC
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