James Jefferies (Week 5 - FFFFMF)

[Merry]

I know - I couldn't either!

[Merry]

I'm adding this query to this thread to keep things together for me, but there's no particular need to read it back at all ()

I needed to know the age of Elizabeth Drake, the wife of Thomas Drake, tailor. Thomas Drake appears in Kingswood in the parish of Mangotsfield Gloucestershire in 1841 with his son and two likely step-children. Unfortunately, his wife Elizabeth isn't there and I presumed he was a widower.

However, I've just been looking at the transcribed South Glouc burial records of the Bristol and Avon FHS for the name Drake and there are only two entries:

7230 DRAKE , Elizabeth Abode: St Georges
Buried 22 Mar 1846 aged 51 Parish: Kingswood, Holy Trinity


7231 DRAKE , Tryphena Abode: Kingswood Hill
Buried 18 Jan 1838 aged 11m Parish: Kingswood, Holy Trinity

I did wonder if Elizabeth is Mrs Thomas Drake and if she is, where is she in 1841? I did also wonder if Tryphena is their daughter, but I can't see anything else for her except her death registration. If I was flush I would get the two death certs, but I wondered if anyone else could see anything to help.

For those who remember this thread (), it would be good if the 1846 burial was for Thomas Drake's wife as we already knew he married an Elizabeth Jefferies and I didn't want his wife to be Elizabeth Jefferies bap 1803 in Mangotsfield as I'd thought that bap belonged to my 3xg-grandmother who married someone else entirely! I think Eliz aged 51 in 1846 is too old to steal 'my' baptism!!

[kiterunner]

I can't find anything, sorry.

[Merry]

Thanks for looking, Kate.

[Merry]

I've spent the entire afternoon/evening constructing a very long post of a timeline for the people on this thread, in the hope of sorting some of them out.

I think I have made some progress, mainly managing to eliminate some entries we'd looked at before.

I was 30 seconds from posting the epic when I happened upon this:

18 Feb 1826 Bristol Mirror
Lately, at St James's church, Mr. Isaac Burchell, butcher and grazier, of Downend, eldest son of Mr. George Burchell, yeoman, to Sarah, daughter of Mr. James Jefferies, auctioneer etc of Staple-hill, Mangotsfield.

Isaac Burchill was my 3xg-grandfather and his details are spot on. The notice was put in the paper about 6 weeks after the wedding. Hopefully the only mistake is the bride's name as she was definitely Elizabeth, not Sarah!! Anyway, the good news is that I can now safely say Elizabeth's father was definitely James Jefferies and I now see I have found a death notice for Elizabeth's father in 1831 and possibly a burial for him too.

I'll post the timeline in my next post if you can bear it!

[Merry]

Here it is!

1746 Approx birth year of Mrs Jane Jefferies who died in Dec 1841 aged 95 at Downend, Mangotsfield, Glouc. Her death cert says she is the widow of William Jefferies, tailor. She died in the home of my 3xg-grandparents, Isaac Burchill and his wife, Elizabeth Burchill, nee Jefferies, b abt 1802/3 in Mangotsfield, Gloucestershire.

There are several marriages between a Wm Jefferies and a Jane from the mid-1760s onwards around Mangotsfield and Bristol.

This is a submitted entry, but it's a good fit if it's real:

WILLIAM JEFFERIES
Marriages: Spouse: JANE JEFFERIES
Marriage: 04 APR 1771 Mangotsfield, Gloucester, England

Possible baptisms for the children of Wm and Jane at Mangotsfield:

20 May 1771 James
20 or 28 May 1775 Amy
21 Aug 1781 William
27 July 1783 Ann
4 Feb 1787 Jane
23 Apr 1789 Elizabeth

There are at least two burials in the area for a William Jefferies of similar age to Jane:

Jefferies, William abode Mangotsfield buried 21 Sep 1828 age 82 Parish Siston

Jefferis, William Abode: Mangotsfield Buried 19 Mar 1821 aged 76 Parish: Siston

This second Wm, above, wrote a will (proved PCC 1 Jun 1821, occ gentleman). He is unlikely to be Jane's husband as he makes no mention of a living wife but names children James, Henry, Sarah, Mrs Ann Watts and Elizabeth Jefferies.(Ann Jefferies m Henry Watts 25 Jun 1800 St Augustine the Less, Bristol).

Next part: James Jefferies (my 4xg?)

Saint Augustine The Less, Bristol. 9 Feb 1802 James Jefferies married Elizabeth Sandill by banns. Condition not recorded. They both signed. Witnesses J Hancock and someone I can't read but might be 'Basting' (mark).

I think at least the first few children below belong to this couple:

Baptisms at Mangotsfield, parents James and Elizabeth:

20 Feb 1803 Elizabeth (my 3xg???)
25 Dec 1804 James
15 Feb 1807 William Sandall
26 May 1809 Joseph (I don't have access to pre-1813 burials, but I guess this child died before the next one was born)
23 Sep 1810 Joseph
4 Sep 1814 Henry aged 2 father's occ, tailor Abode "Common Mangotsfield"
4 Sep 1814 Charles occ and abode ditto
13 Apr 1823 Ann born 1817 occ and abode ditto
13 Apr 1823 Jane occ and abode ditto

I'm not saying all the above belong to the same couple for sure, but at this point there is a gap, so possibly different parents or at least not the same mother, for the next children (see further down!)

Before the next set of children there are two possible marriages for a James Jefferies, neither of which give condition for the bride or groom:

Parish of Temple, Bristol 21st May 1821 James Jefferies and Elizabeth Amesbury, banns. He signed, she made her mark. Witnesses William Ball and G...... Ball (might be Grace?)

St Augustine the Less, Bristol 20th Aug 1822 James Jefferies and Elizabeth Redmore, banns. They both signed. Witnesses John Barrett and Ann Harris (serial witnesses)

Could this burial be Elizabeth Jefferies nee Sandill, if her last child, bap in April 1823, above, was not newborn? Seems a bit unlikely though it would mean her husband could remarry to one of the brides above.

JEFFERIS , Elizabeth Abode: Mangotsfield Buried 23 Apr 1820 aged 43 Parish: Siston

There's also this burial:

JEFFERIES, James Abode: Mangotsfield Buried 29 Jan 1823 aged 32 Parish: Siston

This James is too young to be the husband of Elizabeth Sandill, but he did write a will which he signed 18 Jan 1823. In it he names his father as William Jefferies and his sister Ann Watts, so he is the son of William who died in 1821. He also names his wife as Elizabeth and whilst he mentions children there are none named, so I don't know if he actually had any. I suppose one of those two marriages listed above in 1821 or 1822 may belong to this James, but I've not been able to work out which.

Next we have some more children of a James Jefferies and his wife Elizabeth baptised at Mangotsfield....

1825 Francis (exact date not known) father's occ tailor, abode Staple Hill buried 4 Sep 1825 aged 6mths Abode: Mangotsfield Parish: Siston
10 Sep 1826 Mary Ann father's occ tailor, abode Staple Hill
30 Nov 1828 Francis ditto abode Bitton

Then there's this burial:

JEFFERIS , James Abode: Bitton Buried 27 Feb 1831 aged 52 Parish: Siston

I wondered if this was the husband of Elizabeth Sandill?

Next I found this in the newspaper....

North Devon Journal, 24 Feb 1831

On Sunday last (ie 20th Feb) at Kingswood, Bristol, Mr James Jefferies, Landsurveyor and Auctioneer, aged 47.

Are these two records for the same person? (are there two places called Kingswood? The Parish of Kingswood is miles from Bristol, but there's a Kingswood in Mangotsfield which is much nearer, but I don't know if it extends into Bitton?) re being a land surveyor and auctioneer: son James b 1804 is shown as a Land Surveyor in 1841 though he was a tailor at his children's baptisms.

If both entries are the same man I would think his age was closer to 52 than 47 (married 1802 so either 23 or 18 at marriage?) Whichever age is right, (if either!) it's pretty doubtful he was the son of Wm and Jane bap 1771 unless he lost masses of years whist married to a younger woman, perhaps?

It seems right that James who died in 1831 (the auctioneer) was father of the three children bap 1825-1828 in Mangotsfield, as the two surviving children turn up apparently with a step-father, Thomas Drake in 1841. There's this marriage (no conditions again)

St Augustine the Less, Bristol 25th July 1831 Thomas Drake and Elizabeth Jefferies, banns. They both signed. Witnesses John Barrett and John Hill (serial witnesses)

My other issue, apart from all those here already, is that James b 1804 and his wife, Lydia and their children seem to have vanished, possibly between 1848 and 1851. I can't see them on the census and it looks like he was arrested (and acquitted) for theft in 1848. (fmp won't let me back in again to pick up the exact details, but the events were in the right place and he was recorded as a clerk.) Did they emigrate perhaps?

[kiterunner]

The Bristol CD has the William Jefferies / Jane Jefferies marriage at Mangotsfield 1 Apr 1771, both OTP, by licence.

[Merry]

Thanks Kate.

I'm in the process of sorting out getting some of the Bristol CDs (or more likely will get the direct downloads) - just have to get my car serviced first and I'll be booking that in later.

The biggest problem with the stuff I've put together is that I have Elizabeth Sandill dying before her last child was born! lol

Oh and not knowing who married who in 1821/22. I'm going to look at the papers for Redmore and Amesbury on the off chance there's a helpful marriage notice. I'll also get out the copies of the marriages to have a look at the sigs.

[Merry]

I'm going to look at the papers for Redmore and Amesbury

That got me nowhere!

[kiterunner]

Originally Posted by Merry

My other issue, apart from all those here already, is that James b 1804 and his wife, Lydia and their children seem to have vanished, possibly between 1848 and 1851. I can't see them on the census and it looks like he was arrested (and acquitted) for theft in 1848. (fmp won't let me back in again to pick up the exact details, but the events were in the right place and he was recorded as a clerk.) Did they emigrate perhaps?

What are their children's names and dates of birth, please?