Could someone look at an ancestry family tree ?

[marquette]

My sub has run out.

There are several family trees on ancestry for
Charles Arthur Phillip Hargrave born 1858 and died 1936.

Most don't seem to have any parents listed, but a couple do.
I would love to know who are listed as his parents and if they are not named Hargrave, is there any documentation of the name change.

Also is Charles Arthur Phillip Hargrave b 1855 Norway the same person do you think ?

There is also Arthur Charles Thelluson Sanderson b 1858 died 1936 in different trees, his parents should be Henry Thelluson Sanderson and Bessie Dora Bowen. Does he have any children listed ?

Do you think CAP Hargrave and ACT Sanderson are the same person ????

Thanks

[Merry]

There are 14 public trees with this name on: Charles Arthur Phillip Hargrave.They all have the same marriage and death details (Matilda FTaylor 1879 NSW and 1936, NSW), but they are split on year and place of birth (1855 Norway and 1849 (Stepney) UK). All have variations on a theme of the same parents, Henry Thelson (Thelluson) Hargrave and Bessie Dora Bowen.

I can't find this chap: Arthur Charles Thelluson Sanderson in any trees?? UPDATE but I can if I drop the Thelluson. Parents are same as above for the mother and Henry Thelluson Sanderson for father. B 1858 either nowhere ot NSW Sydney. A couple of trees have the same wife as above, but most have no wife. Some have the same date of death as for Hargrave.

[Merry]

NSW death : 20320/1936 HARGRAVE ARTHUR CHARLES PHILLIP HENRY BESSIE HELENSBURGH

No deaths for Arthur Charles Sanderson in NSW 1900-1980.

Yes, they may well be the same person.

[Merry]

Those who have her marrying Sanderson sometimes have this marriage:

Marriages Jun 1848
BOWEN Elizabeth Dore W Derby 20 745
Sanderson Henry Wt Derby 20 745

Those who have her marrying Hargrave (same man?) don't have a marriage but some state 1840 for the date of it, but so do some of the people who have tried to type the date of the above marriage!

All who have Bessie as Mrs Sanderson have her dying in 1868 (no place or exact date) and there is the same info for the death of Mrs Bessie Hargrave on some trees. The rest have her living until Aug 1908 and dying in NSW!

In fact the 1908 death is registered as Sanderson

8182/1908 SANDERSON BESSIE D ARTHUR E BESSIE D SYDNEY

So a different surname to her son. Was she married twice perhaps?

Tried to see, but only found

2435/1901 AMOS WILLIAM HARGRAVE BESSIE D WOLLONGONG

which seems a bit of a co-incidence.

No it isn't.....that one was Miss Hargraves, so she was a co-incidence!

25288/1958 AMOS BESSIE DORA CHARLES HARGREAVES MATILDA WOLLONGONG

I'll shut up now!

[Merry]

Now I'm thinking these two:

Charles Arthur Phillip Hargrave and Arthur Charles Thelluson Sanderson

are the same person, or brothers, and it's their father who has two surnames. (maybe )

[marquette]

Thanks Merry

I do think they are the same person, but we have no proof of the name change. Henry Sanderson apparently adopted the Thelluson middle name sometime around his marriage, for its surely not in his baptism records. He seemed to think his mother Mary Ann Ives was an illegitmate child of the Thelluson family, adopted by the Ives family.

However, none of his siblings supported his claim on the Thelluson estate.

I have been thinking he took this route as he was bankrupted three times (once in England, twice in Australia) and was trying to buy some time with his creditors. He named his son Athur Charles Thelluson Sanderson, and other descendents of his brother Edmund, have the Hargrave children quite openly in their trees (not the ancestry ones).

I think ACT Sanderson was so embarrassed by this father he changed his name. Why did he choose Hargrave ? no idea. However, a man who claims descendency from Lawrence Hargrave, famous in Australia for his experiments in flying in the early days, also has photos of Henry T and Bessie Dora and said he got them from Charles Arthur Phillip Hargrave's house.

I think all those trees are mightly confused, so I might have to get an ancestry sub or trial and get in touch with some of them. I wonder how many of them really want to know the truth !!

Di

[Mary from Italy]

Not many, I should think. My new-found Inman relatives are very reluctant to accept that what their families have believed for years is wrong: we have nothing to do with the founder of the Inman shipping line.

[marquette]

No Mary, I don't suppose they do really.

One of the Hargrave descendents is trying to prove they are the same man, so she can go further with her family tree, because if they are not, there is really no clue as to where Charles Arthur Phillip Hargrave came from.

It seems remarkable that the Thelluson name was given to one of his sons.

Henry Sanderson has been detailed in Take one 3x great grandparent - he was a land surveyor and contemporary of George Stephenson, and it is his son who is Henry Thelluson Sanderson, the thrice-bankrupt surveyor, who married Bessie Dora Bowen and named his children - Bessie Mary Thelluson Sanderson, Arthur Charles Thelluson Sanderson, Alice Maud Bowen Sanderson and Henry Alexander Musgrave Sanderson.

Arthur Charles Thelluson Sanderson seems to have changed his name to Charles Arthur Phillip Hargrave before he married Matilda Frances Taylor in 1879 and had, among others, a son he named Henry Thelluson Hargrave who only lived a year or so (1883-1884).

If none of the ancestry trees have connected Arthur Charles Thelluson Sanderson and his parents Henry and Bessie to Henry Sanderson and Mary Ann Ives, they have not been trying to hard, nor have they tripped over any of my or others many posts on the subject over the years.

Henry Thelluson Sanderson died in 1899, Bessie Dora Sanderson in 1908. CAP Hargrave died in 1936 and Matilda in 1913

I think I am willing to accept they are the same person, but I will keep trying to get back in touch with those who seemed to know.

Diane

[mxmar0]

Hello Diane,

A number of years later I stumbled across this post again. An update.

A number of cousins across all lines of those mentioned in the posts above have undertaken DNA analysis to at long last put the question to bed.

The question has been resolved through science. The final answer is that Charles Arthur Philip [CAP] Hargrave and Arthur Charles Thellusson [ACT] Sanderson are one and the same.

Through a process of science, of elimination and the ability to substantiate through official records it is now conclusively proved that Charles Arthur Philip Hargrave and a number of other variations to his name was born Arthur Charles Thellusson Sanderson son of Henry Thellusson Sanderson and Elizabeth Dorothy Bowen. Elizabeth Dorothy was also known as Bessie Dora. Elizabeth was the daughter of Peregrine Bowen and Elizabeth Scowcroft.

Henry Thellusson Sanderson was the son of Henry Sanderson and Mary Anne Ives. Based on my research to date and my 'gut' feel I think CAP aka ACT may have been in trouble and as a result changed his name from Sanderson to Hargrave. He maintained contact with his two surviving siblings throughout his life and was the one who altered his mother's death certificate on her death.

We maynever know the motivation for his changed of name from Sanderson to Hargrave and why he chose Hargrave as the name but I do think the reason has something to do with his contact with Gilbert Hargrave brother of Lawrence Hargrave.

It seems Gilbert may have had his own troubles and must have mixed with ACT Sanderson prior to his marriage with Matilda Frances Taylor.

Notwithstanding the reasons for the change, DNA has proved conclusively the man who was known as Charles Arthur Philip Hargrave was actually Arthur Charles Thellusson Sanderson.

[MitchApperley]

Wondering if anyone is still active from this post would love to hear from you
CAP Hargrave would be my 3rd great grand farther

Kind regards

Mitch Apperley