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  #11  
Old 02-11-14, 14:50
tenterfieldjulie
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Kate, I think we can rule out George born 1880. Mary Ann Greentree m Carl or Charles Fretson/Frederickson/Fredrickson in 1881 .. with children born in NSW and Vic and they come together in one of the Electoral Rolls in Victoria on Ancestry. Mary Ann Greentree is named on Vic births a number of times as their mother . She ends up with 11 children who appear to survive. George doesn't marry and dies age 46 in Vic.

I examined the details in the book on the Greentree family and while it gives a lot of information it makes a lot of errors that were easily found when checking indexes.

The info does however uncover a number of interesting conundrums ..regarding Thomas children.. I tried to follow them all .. and their appear to be some that aren't registered and possibly at least one child that Thomas sires and Catherine rears.

However nearly 2 am and so I must get some shuteye. Thanks for all your help. It is really appreciated.
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  #12  
Old 03-11-14, 01:51
tenterfieldjulie
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Think you should have a rest before you read this

I am trying to sort the family of Thomas Greentree who married Catherine Cohen – I found written in an article online, the following (in bold print) : Their children, in known order, were (details in Italics are what I have found from NSW BDMs)
Mary Ann 24 December 1857, Mary A 1858 Windsor - Mary Ann Greenhee m Charles F Fretson, Walcha 1881 (Carl Frederick Frederickson)Mary Ann Greentree’s son George birth reg 1880;
Sarah Jane 14 July 1860, Sarah J 1860 Windsor - Sarah J m Thomas Dodd, 1878 Tamworth;
Clara 1863, Clara A 1863 Windsor - Clara M James Ayre , 1883 Tamworth;
Thomas James 1865, Thomas J 1865 Windsor – Thomas m Mary A Duggan, 1897 Tamworth;
Harriet Elizabeth 16 February 1868, Harriet 1868 Windsor – Harriett E m Thomas H Lane, 1890 Tamworth;

William Ernest 1872, William 1872 Windsor –
William E m Mary A Lane, Tamworth 1893; William C m Annie A Gray, Inverell 1902;
Are the same person? If so was the 1st wife dead or alive 1902?
I do have the Greentree/Gray Cert so I must check it for details.

Annie Maria 4 April 1874, Annie Maria 1874 Windsor – died 1900 Tamworth;
James 1878 and Not found!!
Richard 1880. Richard 1878 Tamworth – Richard m Agnes A Sipple, Tamworth 1907.

Firstly, Thomas when registering Harriet in 1868, stated he had one boy and three girls living, one boy and one girl deceased, yet, his death certificate, some thirty-eight years later, only refers to one deceased child, that being Annie Maria who died Tamworth 1900.
It is highly likely that Thomas' son Alfred, when registering his father's death, had no knowledge of any deceased children earlier in his parent's life.
(From Phillip Greentree’s draft “They Stood Tall”) Also after Thomas died in 1902 was written. The informant was Thomas' son Alfred who was still living at home, never to leave.So who is Alfred?

We know from the roll of the Nemingha school in 1878, that Thomas and Catherine Greentree's property was just half a mile from the school. Clara Ann [15], Thomas James [12], Harriet [9], William [6], Anne Maria [4] and Alfred Shepherd [8] were all enrolled. (From Phillip Greentree’s draft “They Stood Tall”)
Was Thomas’ son Alfred, the Alfred Shepherd aged 8 enrolled at Nemingha school in 1878? .. so born C1870. Contender s are - born 1869 at Warialda, to single mother Susannah – problem with this is that Greentrees didn’t come to Tamworth till after 1874 – Thomas could have raised him, but I wouldn’t have thought that he was his birth father .. The other one is an Alfred born 1872 at Richmond, mother Jemima. Thomas was in that area then so he could be the natural father. However the age is a bit out. With Catherine acting as a midwife, she could also have taken in babies whose mother’s single mother’s couldn’t care for them, so there may not be a birth connection.

From Phillip Greentree’s draft “They Stood Tall” - Now things become very jumbled, so I will try to sort it into paragraphs that make sense.

In the following years, (after Thomas death in 1902) Catherine lived to see Richard, her youngest marry Ansetina Agnes Sippel (reg Agnes A Sipple 1907) and Clara marry James Ayers (reg Ayre 1883). (People’s memories, or someone’s recordings are very confused)

Family legend also claims that she experienced the tragedy of James serving his country in the Great War, only to return and find his fiancee married to another man. James there-after remained single. Given that James would have been 35 years old by the outbreak of war and that no James Greentree is listed in the records at the Australian War Memorial, one must doubt that story. I have not been able to find James birth or death .. so I am wondering if he existed?

(NOTE: In the same book, Philip says Richard had a fight with his fiancee, Ms White, and went off to New Zealand for two years; on his return, he was dismayed to find Ms White had married another! This is the James who appears in Tom ROBERTS' painting "Shearing at Newstead"!!! In one breath talking about Richard and now back to the elusive James )

Confusion reigns .. Greentree siblings!!
Questions are :
William Edward and William George .. Are they the same man?
Who is Alfred Shepherd?
Did James Greentree exist? Help!!
Think I need a long rest ..

Last edited by tenterfieldjulie; 03-11-14 at 01:53.
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  #13  
Old 03-11-14, 08:11
tenterfieldjulie
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I found the marriage entry for William Greentree and Annie Agatha Gray and unfortunately it doesn't give marital status to indicate whether he could be a widower. I have found the death cert of Annie, who died first, the information supplied by their son Geoffrey. William died as the result of brain injuries accidentally received by a fall in the Hospital Ward, so the informant was the coroner, the children's names are basically the same, except William has a note of one male deceased which is not on Annie's.
I think the way to go is to get Laurie (George Lorimer) birth cert, which should give me at least where his father was born, his age and whether he had older children.
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  #14  
Old 03-11-14, 08:24
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Ancestry's Australian Birth Index has James:
James Thomas F Greentree 1880, parents Thomas and Catherine; Gosford, NSW.
They also have, in addition to the ones that you listed:
Herbert T Greentree 1870, parents Thomas and Catherine; Brisbane Water, NSW.
Ada Sarah Greentree 1872, parents Thomas and Catherine; Macdonald River, NSW.
Emeline Maud Greentree 1873, parents Thomas and Catherine; Windsor, NSW.
Frederick Willis Greentree 1875, parents Thomas and Catherine; Windsor, NSW.
David George Greentree 1877, parents Thomas and Catherine; Windsor, NSW.
Hilda Minnie Greentree 1881, parents Thomas and Catherine; Windsor, NSW.
Ethen Emanuel J Greentree 1882, parents Thomas and Kate; Gosford, NSW.
Mary E Greentree 1884, parents Thomas and Catherine; Penrith, NSW.
Ella Greentree 1886, parents Thomas and Catherine; Penrith, NSW.

Could David George be William George? Could Ethen Emanuel J be James? Not sure which of them is a candidate for Alfred Shepherd! I suppose from the age given it should be Herbert T!

You might need another rest after reading that lot!
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  #15  
Old 03-11-14, 08:31
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David George Greentree seems to be a different person from William George as he shows up on the electoral registers and has a probate file.

Now that I have managed to get the NSW BDM site to load, I see that it also has those births I listed.
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  #16  
Old 03-11-14, 08:40
tenterfieldjulie
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I think a lot of people were confused with all those births but there were 3 marriages of a Thomas Greentree to Catherines. One in 1867 to Katherine/Catherine Hobbs and another in 1879 to Catherine Smallwood. I found on obit of Trove which takes care of a number of the ones who belong to Catherine Hobbs.

There passed away recently one of the oldest identities of Rooty Hill, in the person of Mrs. Katherine Greentree, wife of Mr. Thomas Greentree, Deceased, who had reached her 84th year, was a native of the Hawkesbury district, and prior to her wedding was Miss Hobbs, a name well known around Windsor.
With her husband and a young family, she went to reside at Plumpton over 40 years ago, and, during that time, had been one of the most respected residents.
She is survived by her husband and a family of grown-up sons and daughters, including Messrs. Herbert (Auburn), Frederick (Rooty Hill), George (Riverstone) (I presume this is the David George) , and Mesdames Erwin (Ada) and Curry (Emmeline) (Wentworthville), Halligan (Hilda) and Honeysett (Plumpton), and Walker (Ruby) (Enfield). (I couldn't find the Honeysett one)
In addition she leaves a large number of grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
(Newspaper dated 15/3/1924 - Cumberland Argus etc – Parramatta)
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  #17  
Old 03-11-14, 08:51
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Right, that makes sense.

Do you think that James Thomas F belongs to your couple, though?
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  #18  
Old 03-11-14, 09:12
tenterfieldjulie
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Kate, No I don't think it is the right couple, because "mine" were well settled in Tamworth. Thomas was supposed to be a sulky driver for a local Dr, as well as running a farm at Nemingha on the outskirts of Tamworth, where Farrer Agricultural College is now. Catherine was acting as a midwife. Gosford would not be where she would go to have a baby.
What I now feel may have happened, centres around Thomas' brother Richard.
Richard was born 1841 and married Margaret Hogue Jeffrey in 1867. Children: Richard born 1867, Alison 1869, Laura 1872, James M 1874 and George 1876. Richard unexpectedly died 16/7/1877, he was a farmer on the Cockburn River at Nemingha outside Tamworth. This is around the time that Thomas and family came to Tamworth, whether because of this I am not sure. We know that Thomas and Catherine had a son Richard in Tamworth in 1878, pretty obviously named after his just deceased uncle. Margaret Greentree (widow) married Henry Hunt in Tamworth in 1878 .. Sarah born 1879, Henry John R Jnr born 1880 and Georgina M born 1882 at Tamworth .. there is also a Mary born 1892 at Wilcannia, but not sure it is the right Henry and Margaret Hunt as parents. I am wondering now if the two small Greentree boys, James and George, morphed into sons of Thomas, as Richard was dead? They certainly wouldn't have remembered their birth father and may not have been very welcome by their step father. This is only supposition of course .. Thanks for your interest Kate .. I am sure flying blind here ..

Last edited by tenterfieldjulie; 03-11-14 at 09:34.
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  #19  
Old 03-11-14, 09:36
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There is a George Greentree death 1917 Hunters Hill, NSW, father Richard but no mother's name on the index.
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  #20  
Old 03-11-14, 10:15
tenterfieldjulie
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I can discount George Fitzherbert Greentree son of Richard and Margaret because I found him on the ERolls living in Taree with wife Violet Foxe. He died in Tamworth in 1962.
It was looking so promising too because Margaret Hogue Jeffrey's 2nd husband Henry Hunt died in 1883. Poor lady was then left with another 4 yr old, 2 yr old and a 1 yr old as well as the other 5 Greentrees ..
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