Genealogists' Forum - We have branches everywhere!



Go Back   Genealogists' Forum - We have branches everywhere! > Research > Research Questions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 28-05-19, 10:49
Lorraine Karen Lorraine Karen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 44
Default Theatrical family - missing

Hello Genealogists Forum

We have a theatrical family that was previously unknown to us!

Please help find Eliza Priscilla Thrasher born 1869 London after 1891
her daughter is Violet Alice Louise Jezard, born out of wedlock

Please help find Violet Alice Louise Jezard born 1890 London after 1901
Violet is given false parents on her birth certificate and baptism and hidden from the 1891 census - why?
Violet is born in Finborough Road and Sacillia Lovell registered at that address is not found on any other records - why?
The Thrasher family change their name when Violet is born, to hide her birth or hiding from debts?

Horace Thrasher born 1893, later known as Horace Courtenay
Horace is given false parents on his birth certificate and baptism, why
Mother Alice Thrasher born 1871 London later known as Grace Courtenay
Grace married step-father Herbert Solomon in 1901
Horace and Violet are sent to a girls boarding school in Southend in 1901, why
Being age 7 and illegitimate his father could remove him from his mother, did the mother move him and give them alternative names to hide them or the father move him to give him a better start in life
Grace is living in a boarding house in Kensington living on own means in 1901 the family rumour that Horace was the son of an Earl or an illustrious member of the aristocracy, a person of considerable note.
The Thrasher family change their name when Horace is born, to hide his birth or hiding from debts.

Please help find Edward Leslie Court born 1905 London after 1926
Mother Ruby/Ruth Court (maiden names Ruth/Ruby Thrasher/Jezard), father Albert Edward Court Chief Of Staff London Coliseum
Ruth emigrated to America in 1905/1912 and had a common law marriage with also married Edward Warren Congdon a theatre booking manager, she was herself an actress/dancer and died in San Fransisco in 1968
Albert died in 1923
Edward emigrated to Canada in 1926

Eliza, Alice and Ruth's sister Louisa married Percy Atkins a theatrical business manager at the London Lyceum, The Globe (we have a silver bowl with The Globe Club engraved underneath, the bowl looking like the beautiful domed theatre ceiling) and other London theatres.

The sisters parents are Robert Thrasher and Priscilla May Pope, who were also probably not married as no marriage certificate can be found - but according to the Charles Booth survey the Thrasher family live in wealthy, respectable areas of London.

The Thrasher family are known as Torplow/Triplow, Jezard and Courtenay.

Thank you for your help!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 28-05-19, 13:53
kiterunner's Avatar
kiterunner kiterunner is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 22,553
Default

This may take some time! But just wanted to say that if Horace was illegitimate, I don't think his father would have had any rights over him.
__________________
KiteRunner

Family History News updated 28th April
Free access to Newspapers.com till 3rd May
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 28-05-19, 14:07
Lorraine Karen Lorraine Karen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 44
Default

Thank you very much!

The law denied unmarried mothers any rights over their children when the children reached the age of seven, and they were obliged to hand them over to the father if he so desired. He might be rich enough to offer the child a better chance in life and there are instances of wealthier fathers taking their children away from mistresses with whom they had broken.

https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en...acy_in_England
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 28-05-19, 14:20
kiterunner's Avatar
kiterunner kiterunner is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 22,553
Default

Interesting. Thanks for that.

I see from the GRO birth index that Eliza was born in 1868, not 1869.

Could you give us details of the parents' names given on Violet and Horace's birth certificates and baptisms, please?
Oh, and the dates of birth for Violet, Horace, and Edward from their birth certs as it will help in searching the 1939 Register etc.
__________________
KiteRunner

Family History News updated 28th April
Free access to Newspapers.com till 3rd May
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 28-05-19, 14:25
Phoenix's Avatar
Phoenix Phoenix is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,236
Default

The article does not make it clear which period of time they are talking about, nor which strata of society.

By the late nineteenth century, informal relationships were fairly common in cities, where the authorities were less able to keep tabs on people.

While a father might demand parental rights over an illegitimate child, I suspect it is reported by virtue of its rarity. Most men had to be dragged kicking and screaming to accept their responsibilities for the child's maintenance.

The seven years old bit is because that was the age that pauper children were put out as parish apprentices.
__________________
The chestnuts cast their flambeaux
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 28-05-19, 14:35
kiterunner's Avatar
kiterunner kiterunner is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 22,553
Default

I've found their baptism records now, so you don't need to give the details from those, but can you please confirm that the parents' names on the birth registrations are the same as on the baptisms?
12 Jul 1896 St Philip, Kensington
Violet Alice Louise, daughter of George and May Jezard, 133 Finboro Rd, father's occupation steward on P & O.
Horace, son of Percy and Louisa Thrasher, 133 Finboro Rd, father's occupation clerk.

Can you tell us how you know who their parents (well, their mothers) really were, please?
__________________
KiteRunner

Family History News updated 28th April
Free access to Newspapers.com till 3rd May
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 28-05-19, 14:50
kiterunner's Avatar
kiterunner kiterunner is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 22,553
Default

This is 133 Finborough Rd on the 1891 census but a family called Pilditch are there:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...G12_30_32-0327

Sacillia Lovell is listed at 109 Finborough Rd on the 1889-1891 electoral registers, so I take it that Violet was born at no 109? There is a family called Doyle at no 109 on the 1891 census:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...G12_30_32-0322
__________________
KiteRunner

Family History News updated 28th April
Free access to Newspapers.com till 3rd May
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 28-05-19, 14:56
kiterunner's Avatar
kiterunner kiterunner is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 22,553
Default

Just googled "Sacillia Lovell" and it looks as though you have asked about these people on other forums in the past, so I'm just reading through some of those to see whether they came up with anything.
__________________
KiteRunner

Family History News updated 28th April
Free access to Newspapers.com till 3rd May
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 28-05-19, 15:04
kiterunner's Avatar
kiterunner kiterunner is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 22,553
Default

Okay, so from reading one of those other forums, I now know that this is the 1891 census entry for Eliza, who is supposed to be Violet's mother:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...nSearchResults

18 Chapter Chambers, Westminster
Priscilla Torplow Head Widow 50 Dressmaker Cardiff South Wales
Eliza Torplow Daur S 23 Assistant Dressmaker London
Louisa Torplow Daur S 19 Assistant Dressmaker London
Ruth Torplow Daur 12 London.
__________________
KiteRunner

Family History News updated 28th April
Free access to Newspapers.com till 3rd May
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 28-05-19, 15:14
Lorraine Karen Lorraine Karen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 44
Default

Thank you!

Apologies, Eliza Thraser was born in 1868 and baptised in 1869.

Sorry birth certificate not to hand at the moment
Violet Alice Louise Jezard born 1890 London, baptised 1896 with Horace
Birth certificate parents Eliza Thrasher now Eliza Jezard, husband Alfred Jezard
Baptism parents May Jezard and George Jezard
Eliza and Alfred are not married - Alfred doesn't exist
Violet and Alfred do not appear on the 1891 census
Eliza is living with her family - is Violet upstairs in a room just not noted down for the census
Eliza's mother is Priscilla May Thrasher (Pope) born 1841 Hartest and Priscilla has a brother called George Pope - could these be the baptism 'parents'
In the 1881 census a brother Alfred Pope is visiting but looking at all the censuses for Priscilla's Pope family there is no Alfred and checked out baptisms in between each census

Horace 2 January 1893
Horace Thrasher born 1893 London, baptised with Violet 1896
Birth certificate parents Grace Courtenay, now Grace Thrasher, father Robert Thrasher (Grace Courtenay is Alice Thrasher, Robert Thrasher is Alice's father)
Baptism parents Percy Thresher and Louisa Thresher (this is Percy Frederick Atkins and Louisa Thrasher Alice's sister who marry in 1905)
When Alice marries as Grace Courtenay in 1901 she calls her deceased father Robert Courtenay - we think Robert Thrasher who dies in 1879 is our Robert who on the death certificate is a fireman, a theatre fireman as the fire brigade have no records of him

Horace and Violet are living with their grandmother Priscilla May Thrasher but now known as Priscilla Jezard living in 133 Finborough Road
Priscilla dies in 1900 the widow of John Jezard (is this Robert Thrasher, when her daughter Ruth/Ruby marries as Ruby Jezard she calls her father Robert Jezard) but again no marriage for Priscilla and John and her daughter in law with her at her death was Ellen Jezard (is this Eliza) who again doesn't exist, so perhaps another reason why the children are sent to a boarding school but why Southend and why a girls boarding school for Horace - he hated it there apparently!

Sorry birth certificate not to hand at the moment born end of December and registered in early January
Edward Leslie Court born 1905 London, emigrated 1926 to Canada

Thanks again for your help!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:36.


Hosted by Photon IT

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 PL3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.