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  #1  
Old 09-11-14, 13:26
Olde Crone Olde Crone is offline
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Default Thomas Bell (ahnentafel [22])

Name - "official" name and what they were known as

Thomas Bell
Date and place of birth

c1827 Carlisle Cumberland.
Names of parents
Illegitimate

Date and place of baptism - if applicable

Unable to define

Details of each of his or her marriages - if any

1. 13 May 1849 Manchester Cathedral = Mary Woodhead. He is a painter, bachelor. No father's name given.
2. 30 July 1863 St Mary Virgin, Eccles, full age, painter, widower of Rochdale Rd, Blackley Manchester to Eliza Taylor, full, spinster of Swinton Hall. Her father is David Taylor a logwood grinder. Thomas does not name a father. (

Occupation(s) - if any

Painter, beerhouse keeper.

Addresses where they lived - and please list which censuses you have or haven't found him/her on.

1841 - not found
1849 - 11 Mount St, Manchester
1850 - "of Collyhurst"
1851 - 4 John St Manchester
1861 - Top Derby Inn, Barnes Green Rochdale Rd Blackley Manchester
1863 - Rochdale Rd Manchester
1871 - Top Derby etc
1881 - Top Derby etc
1891 - Top Derby etc


Date, place and cause of death

1892 age 64. Lancsbmd
Date and place of burial / cremation.

Not found

Details of will / administration of their estate - if applicable

Not found

Memorial inscription - if any
Not found.



Notes: I have searched extensively (but online only) for Thomas's baptism. There are simply too many in Carlisle, many of them illegitimate. I have made a vague guess that his mother was called Jane (his second daughter was called Jane) but even so, there are still at least three illegitimate births of a Thomas to a Jane Bell.

OC

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  #2  
Old 09-11-14, 19:59
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If it's any help, his address on his first marriage on the image on ancestry is 7 Mount Street, not 11. (The witnesses are James Heap and Martha Beswick, but I'm sure you have that already).
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Old 09-11-14, 21:49
Olde Crone Olde Crone is offline
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Thankyou Kate - I've just looked at my copy of the marriage cert and you are right, it's number 7, not 11. A very oddly written 7 with two descenders!

(In fact, just the action of looking at my old notes today has made me look for and find quite a bit of missing information, including two children I didn't know about, details of his second marriage, his death and the deaths of both his wives).

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Old 09-11-14, 23:11
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Have you ruled these people out, OC? Apart from the obvious problem that the parents appear to have been married before the birth of this Thomas, though I haven't got as far as finding their marriage yet.

1841 Rochdale Rd, Manchester
John Bell 35 House Painter N
Ellin Do 40 Y
George Do 15 Y
Thos Do 10 N
Elizabeth Do 5 Y

1851 same address
John Bell Head Mar 48 Master Painter empl 2 men Cumberland Newby
Ellen Do Wife M 54 Lancashire Prestwich
Elizabeth Do Daur 16 Dressmaker App Do Collyhurst
Joseph Todd Appr U 16 Painter App Cumberland Newby

George Bell baptised 18 Dec 1825 St Margaret, Hollinwood, Lancashire, son of John and Ellen, Tinker Lane, painter.
John Bell baptised 23 May 1832 Manchester Cathedral, son of John and Ellen, Harpurhey, painter.
Elizabeth Jane Bell baptised 29 Jun 1835 Manchester Cathedral, daughter of John and Helen, Collyhurst, painter.

Burials at St Mary, Blackley:
14 May 1832 Mary, dau of John and Ellen Bell of Collyhurst, painter, age 15 months
12 Jun 1832 Jane age 4 yrs 9 mth
27 Jun 1832 John age 3 yrs.
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Old 09-11-14, 23:34
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In 1861 John Bell's birthplace is Carlisle:
Rochdale Rd, Harpurhey, Lancashire
John Bell Head Mar 57 Painter & Plumber Master Cumberland Carlisle
Ellen Do Wife Mar 66 Lancs Prestwich
Edward Gresty Son in Law Mar 27 Manchester Warehouseman Do Manchester
Elizabeth Do Daur Mar 26 Do Do
John Do Grandson 5 Do Do
George Do Grandson 3 Do Do
Joseph Do Grandson 1 Do Do
Joseph Todd Nephew Un 26 Painter & Plumber Cumberland Carlisle.
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Old 09-11-14, 23:44
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John Bell bachelor, painter, married Ellen Worthington, spinster, 25 Dec 1824 at Manchester Cathedral. Yes, one of those Christmas Day weddings at the Cathedral.

Of course this could all be a big fat red herring.

The Newby where John Bell and Joseph Todd were born seems to be in or near Carlisle as their birthplaces vary between Newby and Carlisle on the censuses.

Have to leave it there for tonight anyway! I will probably log on tomorrow to find out that you did all this years ago and ruled them out...

(But I hadn't noticed that Rochdale Road address in post #1 until I reread through the thread just now!!)
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Old 10-11-14, 07:13
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Of course as soon as I had shut down the computer last night I realised that Thomas was probably another nephew of John's rather than his son, despite being listed between George and Elizabeth Jane on the 1841 census.
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Old 10-11-14, 07:58
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This is Joseph Todd's family on the 1841 census:

Newby, Dalston, Cumberland
James Todd 56 Ag Lab Y
Mary Do 40 Y
James Todd 13 Y
Jane Do 10 Y
Elizabeth Do 8 Y
Joseph Do 6 Y
Mary Do 2 Y
Elenor Todd 2 months Y
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Old 10-11-14, 08:32
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FamilySearch has James Todd marrying Mary Bell 28 Jun 1817 at St Mary, Carlisle. On the 1851 census Mary is age 56, born Cumb Newby.
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Old 10-11-14, 10:54
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1871 census
Rochdale Road, Manchester
John Bell Head Mar 65 Painter Employing 6 Labourers Newby Cumberland
Ellen Do Wife Do 75 Do Wife Prestwich Lancashire
Edward Gresty Son in Law Mar 37 Warehouseman Blackley Do
Elizabeth Do Daughter Do 36 Do Wife Harpurhey Do
John Do Grandson Unmar 15 Painter Do Do
George Do Do 13 Scholar Do Do
Joseph Do Do 11 Do Do Do
Thomas Do Do 7 Do Do Do
Alice Ann Do Granddaughter 3 Do Do Do
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