Robert Smith

[Asa]

I'm not sure if this is a hopeless case at the moment and I know it's harder to help with Scottish records but....

I have an ancestor Robert Smith about whom I know a fair amount and yet very little! I haven't found him on any census but I've found 6 records of him in Dundee newspapers. I think a timeline is the best way of showing what I do know

4 Jan 1847 Cupar, Fife - Umbrella maker, married Mary Hollinger (born c1828/32 Dundee), both of the parish.

Jun 1847 Bell-hanger of Abroath, Forfar (Angus). He and Mary (a mill worker of Ramsays Pend, Dundee) found guilty of assault & disorderly conduct.

May 1849 Bell-hanger of Overgate, Dundee. 40 days imprisonment for being drunk and disorderly.

1851 census. Mary Hollinger, wife of a travelling tinker, in Forfar prison. Above her are Robert Young, married, 24 and John Smith, unm 22 both umbrella menders and born Dundee.

abt 1853 Daughter Mary born Dundee

3 Dec 1856 Daughter Margaret born Dundee. Father a bell hanger

1858 Dundee 3 months with hard labour for striking his wife with fists & kicking her. 11 previous convictions for assault

14 Mar 1861 Daughter Robina Jane born Dundee. Father a Master Bell hanger

1861 Census Mary, married, Cherry Fields, Liff & Benvie, Dundee with three daughters

13 Dec 1864 Daughter Betsy born

1866 Umbrella maker of Dudhope Crescent, Dundee. Convicted for 21 days for breach of the peace.

1868 & 1869 Robert, a hawker of Balgay Street, Lochee, Dundee. 2 more convictions for assaulting his wife & attacking a policeman.

1871 Census. Mary is a married jute spinner in Todburn Lane, Dundee with daughter Robina.

Nov 1879 Mary dies at Blairgowrie, Perth, wife of Robert Smith, bell hanger.

1884 Daughter Robina marries. Father a bell hanger

1904 Daughter Margaret dies, father a deceased general dealer.

Clearly a charmer. Mary has several convictions as well, usually for being drunk and disorderly. I've looked at several death certificates for Robert Smith and not yet found him.

I feel I should be able to find him on census on Ancestry, using occupation but haven't.

Any ideas?

[kiterunner]

The occupations aren't usually very accurately transcribed on ancestry, but I can't find him searching the 1841 and 1851 censuses on FreeCEN for occupation "bell hanger" or "bellhanger". Though I suppose he probably wouldn't have that occupation in 1841 anyway.

[Asa]

Thanks for having a look, Kate.

[Shona]

Looking at Ancestry, there is this record:

Betsy, daughter of Mary Hollinger or Smith.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...off=&ml_rpos=6

Then there is this. Poss the same birth. Betsy Hollinger, born 9 June 1855, Dundee, mother Mary Hollinger.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...off=&ml_rpos=8

[Shona]

Had a look through my Fife pre-stat registration death records in case there were any clues there about the Hollinger family. Nothing at all!

If the family were Scottish tinkers (I have a suspected travelling family in one of my Scottish branches), they may well be very difficult to track down. Also as the men tended to be involved in metal work, they sometimes used the name Smith even if it wasn't their actual surname.

My membership of the Fife Family History Society has lapsed (your thread has served to remind me to renew), which is a shame as I recall that in their records section available to members, there were lots of Cupar records.

[Asa]

Thank you, Shona. I do have those - Mary's daughter and niece. The Hollingers came over from Monaghan sometime in the 1820s so it's possible Robert was Irish too of course.

I'd love to find Robert somewhere after his marriage - travelling tinker sits oddly with being a master bell-hanger I'd have thought...

[Shona]

I had been considering if both families were Irish, as well. A number of the Smith travelling families I've looked at were Irish.

[kiterunner]

There is information here about how to research Scottish criminals, but there doesn't seem to be much data online:
http://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/researc...-and-criminals

[kiterunner]

The Jun 1847 newspaper report says that Robert Smith had two previous convictions for assault.

And here's another one:
Dundee, Perth, and Cupar Advertiser 17 Sep 1847
Police Court
Robert Smith, bell-hanger, Overgate, was fined 10s or go ten days to durance, besides finding bail in 20s to keep the peace for six months or remain twenty days longer, for assaulting a shoemaker in his own house.

[Asa]

Thank you both.

I hadn't found that one, Kate - I'll keep trying to find others in case it shines any light. As you say, there isn't a lot for crime and punishment available online yet.