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#31
19-06-18, 08:55
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Thank you for all your great work as I'm not on Ancestry and it makes it more difficult using just church records and free bmd etc . I am now looking at George Whalley s wife Esther Heyes who married him in Upholland in 1887 I want to follow her tree back . So any help would be gratefully received.????
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#32
19-06-18, 09:23
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I see Esther Heyes was aged 19 in 1891 and born in Upholland Lancashire.
Do you have her father's details from the 1887 marriage certificate?
__________________
"Something has been filled in that I didn't know was blank" Matthew Broderick WDYTYA? March 2010
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#33
19-06-18, 11:36
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There is a transcription of the marriage entry on Ancestry which has Esther's father as John Heyes. The transcription states Esther was aged 15 at the marriage in Nov 1887.
There is a nine year old Esther Heyes b Upholland with father John on the 1881 census. There are three possible birth registrations: HEYES, ESTHER mmn HARRISON GRO Reference: 1871 J Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 6 HEYES, ESTHER mmn SMALLSHAW GRO Reference: 1871 D Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 125 HEYES, ESTHER mmn DERBYSHIRE GRO Reference: 1872 J Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 77 However, I think the middle one, mmn Smallshaw, is the right entry as when I looked up some birth registrations for the younger children that was the name that came up in the matches. I looked back through the birth registrations looking for the first Heyes entry with mmn Smallshaw and that was Mary born 1860. She is on the 1881 census with her parents and Esther. I know you don't have Ancestry but you can look at the 1881 census on Family Search. Here's the marriage details: 5 Sep 1859 Upholland John Heyes 27 bachelor stonemason Upholland William Heyes weaver Mary Smallshaw 20 spinster Upholland no father's details Both made their mark Witnesses William Smith, Thomas Grounds (serial witness), both signed No time to do anything more now.
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"Something has been filled in that I didn't know was blank" Matthew Broderick WDYTYA? March 2010
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#35
20-06-18, 09:25
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The 1859 marriage entry suggests John Heyes was born about 1832 and Mary Smallshaw about 1839. The 1881 census has John a little older, b about 1827/8.
We know John's father s William, a weaver and that John said he was born in Upholland. There's a John Heyes in Upholland aged 24 (transcribed by Ancestry as aged 21), with father William and William's wife Ann aged 49 and 45 respectively, all born Upholland, on the 1851 census. William is a hand loom cotton weaver. I've not found them in 1841 at the moment. This is probably Mary Smallshaw in 1851 Parliament St Upholland Thomas Holland head m 56 stone mason b Upholland Esther Holland wife m 59 b ditto John Holland son widower 25 stone mason b ditto Ellen Huyton dau widow 29 pauper b ditto Thomas Smallshaw grandson unm 14 mason's labourer b ditto Mary Smallshaw granddaughter 11 b ditto <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Esther Smallshaw granddaughter 5 b ditto Frederick Huyton grandson 6 b ditto John Ashcroft grandson 5 b ditto There are no obvious birth registrations for Thomas, Mary or Esther as Smallshaw. In 1841 it would seem the Smallshaw's were called Holland: Dog Lane, Upholland Thomas Holland 45 stone mason Esther Holland 45 Margaret Holland 20 cotton weaver Ellen Holland 15 cotton weaver John Holland 15 Thomas Holland 4 Mary Holland 1 All born in county. This looks like a possible birth reg for Mary's younger sister Esther: HOLLAND, ESTHER mmn - GRO Reference: 1845 J Quarter in WIGAN UNION Volume 21 Page 874 but I don't see one for Mary. This might be Thomas Holland's baptism: Baptism: 26 Mar 1837 St Thomas the Martyr, Upholland, Lancs. Thomas Holland - son of Margaret Holland Abode: Holland Occupation: Weaver Baptised by: Jno. Bird Register: Baptisms 1825 - 1841, Entry 1811 Source: LDS Film 1657546 but I don't see a baptism for Mary or Esther. Now it gets complicated! I'm not going to go through all the stages I went through, but go straight to the conclusion! lol First, the marriage of Mary's grandparents, Thomas and Esther Holland: Marriage: 2 Jun 1817 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England Thomas Holland - (X), Parish of Wigan Esther Smalshaw - (X), Parish Of Wigan Witness: Hugh Hickox; Saml. Vizard Married by Banns by: Edwd. Hill Curate Register: Marriages 1816 - 1819, Page 79, Entry 236 Source: LDS Film 1885691 On the 1841 census (above) they had Margaret aged 20 living with them and also Margaret Holland was the name of the mother of Thomas Holland who was baptised (illegitimate) in 1837 (above). It's most likely Margaret is the daughter of Thomas and Esther (no relationships given in 1841) and she is listed as 20, so apparently born after Thomas and Esther were married. However, aged were rounded down in 1841 and Margaret was actually baptised before Esther was married: Baptism: 16 Mar 1817 St Thomas, Upholland, Lancashire, England Margaret Smallshaw - illegitimate daughter of Esther Smallshaw Abode: UpHolland Baptised by: Jno. Bird Register: Baptism 1813 - 1825, Page 107, Entry 853 Source: LDS Film 1657546 It seems most likely Margaret then had the three Holland/Smallshaw children before she got married. At the marriage in 1847 she used her birth name and no father's details: Marriage: 12 Aug 1847 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England Thomas Gaskell - 45, Farmer, Widower, Upholland Margaret Smallshaw - (X), 35, Spinster, Upholland Groom's Father: Joseph Gaskell, Farmer Witness: Daniel Hatton; William Bancks Married by Banns by: Arthur Coates Curate Register: Marriages 1846 - 1848, Page 156, Entry 312 Source: LDS Film 1885695 by the 1851 census Thomas Gaskell had died. Burial: 2 Mar 1851 St Thomas the Martyr, Upholland, Lancashire, England Thomas Gaskell - Age: 57 Abode: UpHolland Register: Burials 1847 - 1961, Page 118, Entry 942 Source: LDS Film 1657555 As you see, he has aged a lot since his marriage! Having said that, this age fits better with him having a son aged 25 in 1851 so he probably rounded himself down at the marriage: 1851 Census Parliament St Upholland (three households from Margaret's parents) Joseph Gaskell head unm 25 shoemaker b Upholland Margaret Gaskell stepmother widow 35 b Upholland Mary Gaskell sister unm 15 servant b ditto James Gaskell brother 21 months b Upholland John Gaskell brother 1 month b Upholland The birth registrations for James and John have mmn Smallshaw. Next Margaret remarried, this time giving Thomas Holland as her father: Marriage: 14 May 1854 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England William Holland - (X), 29, Sawyer, Bachelor, Upholland Margaret Gaskell - (X), 35, Widow, Upholland Bride's Father: Thomas Holland, Mason Witness: Eliza Stephenson; Joseph Turner Married by Banns by: Francis H.Coldwell Curate Notes: [1855 written in error for year of marriage] Register: Marriages 1854 - 1855, Page 3, Entry 6 Source: LDS Film 1885697 I note William Holland was a bachelor, yet there are plenty of children in the new Holland household in 1861..... Back Brow Upholland William Holland head m 36 sawyer b Upholland Margaret Holland wife m 44 b Upholland James Holland son 10 drawer (coal pit) b ditto Henry Holland son 8 Scholar b ditto Ellen Holland dau 7 scholar b ditto Sarah Holland dau 5 scholar b ditto Margaret Holland 3 farm labourer (presume this should be for the lodger!) b ditto Joseph Glover unm lodger ditto for occ and birthplace. I'm thinking James is James Gaskell from the previous census. Most likely birth reg for Henry: GASKELL, HENRY mmn - GRO Reference: 1853 J Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 78 HOLLAND, ELLEN mmn SMALLSHAW GRO Reference: 1854 S Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 82 HOLLAND, SARAH mmn SMALLSHAW GRO Reference: 1856 M Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 87 HOLLAND, MARGARET mmn SMALLSHAW GRO Reference: 1858 D Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 92 I was going to go on and look for baptisms of all these children, but I think I'll let you do that! lol (Lancs OPC). Actually, it's not that complicated - just that I found all this in the wrong order, so sometimes I was looking at the right entry but not recognising it, such as ignoring a married women called Margaret Holland because I was looking for a spinster of the same name!
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"Something has been filled in that I didn't know was blank" Matthew Broderick WDYTYA? March 2010
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#36
20-06-18, 11:40
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Here's the Heyes family in 1841 at Higher Lane Upholland
William Heyes 35 weaver Anne Hayes 35 Thomas Heyes 14 nail maker John Heyes 13 nail maker I can't find this page on Ancestry. Fmp has the ref as piece 522, folio 24, page 9 which brings up a different page on ancestry!
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"Something has been filled in that I didn't know was blank" Matthew Broderick WDYTYA? March 2010
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#37
20-06-18, 13:57
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There should also be a book number for the 1841 census, shouldn't there?
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#38
20-06-18, 14:05
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Quote:
No matches on Ancestry.
__________________
"Something has been filled in that I didn't know was blank" Matthew Broderick WDYTYA? March 2010
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#39
20-06-18, 14:08
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Looks as though the page is missing from ancestry - or maybe out of sequence. This is the page 8 which should be before it:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...7_522_523-0162 and then it goes straight on to page 11. I found a free transcription in here (Word document): https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...sG8v0MUA3VCBxu The Heyes family are on page 49 of the Word document.
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