Scottish relatives
 

Hi , I have done some research in the past regarding , a Ellen Callen born in Wigan around 1823 . I was told her father William Callen was born in Ashton . But I still believe he was born in Glasgow In early 1800s as I did have a aunt there my memory is vague as I was very small at the time but I thought my mum mentioned what sounded like Ella Keller but she could have also could have been Ellen Callen So I am still pursuing the fact that her father was Scottish . Because I visited Glasgow quite a few times when I was small , staying at different houses there . My father also worked up in Scotland for quite a few years . Any help to find out more info would be great happy new year to you all Qwackers

Likely bap for Ellen:

Ellen Callen born 1 Feb 1824 bap 17 Apr 1824 at Wigan, All Saints parents William (a miner) and Ciceley

1841 census:

William Calland 40 coal miner
Ciceley Calland 35
Ellen Calland 15
Mary Calland 15
Elizabeth Calland 15
Richard Calland 10
Thomas Calland 6
Margret Calland 2

All say Yes for born in County (so born in Lancashire)

I don't have time to type out the 1851 census now, but William (surname Colland on Ancestry) aged 53 says he was born at Ashton Lancashire. The other people with him confirm it's the same family as above. Did whoever tell you this get it from this census or somewhere else?

There are several places called Ashton in Lancs. I can think of Ashton under Lyne and Ashton in Makerfield, but there may well be more.

I know you said Scotland, but having an aunt there in the 20thC seems a long way from someone born there (or not born there!!) in the 18thC!

Ashton in Makerfield is 3 miles from Wigan so I wondered if this is your William:

Baptism: 24 Jan 1796 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
William Calland - second Son of William Calland & Ann (formerly Lea)
Born: 31 Dec
Abode: Haigh
Occupation: Weaver
Mother's Parents: Thomas & Betty Lea
Register: Baptisms 1779 - 1799, Page 395
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

Hi , thanks merry , yes I went down that route before , and saw William born in Ashton near Wigan . Could be the one , but still looking for the Scottish link . Ellen Callen had her sons in Glasgow in 1854 and 1855 in Milton and later had another child in another area before coming back to Lancashire . I know people went looking for work wherever but it's a long way from Wigan at that time I don't understand why the names have changed from Callen to collard . If that William is the right one . I know they could have not been able to read or write , so that could be a reason . But there are quite a few Callen s in glasgow .will keep searching thanks for your help

Cisely Calland married William Calland in 1823 in Warrington if these or the right people , I've tried to obtain this marriage certificate but been unable to find where I can get it front as this may help any ideas ? Thanks

There is at least one old thread about these people, maybe more than one. I will find them and post the links.

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/f...ad.php?t=21594

and

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/f...hlight=calland

Could you please let me know if either of these accounts belongs to you so I can merge it with the one you are currently using?

As they married before 1837, there is no GRO marriage certificate to order, but this is the church record:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...nSearchResults

William Calland and Cicely Walker, both of the parish of Warrington, by banns 31 Aug 1823, witnesses Edward Fell and William Webster. William Webster is witness on quite a few marriages so probably not related.

Thanks

Qwackers, is one of those other accounts yours, please? (Bearkins or Anglosaxon.)

Yes bearkins was mine , I think the other one was my daughters account thanks

Thanks. I have merged the Bearkins account into yours, Qwackers.

Hi , I have been pondering about the Scottish connection , could it not be that the connection is not Ellen Callen , but William Grimshaw born in 1854 in Glasgow could is grand father have been Scottish , as there are quite a few Grimshaws in Glasgow can we look into that . Thanks

Sorry I mean great grand father as I think William Grimshaw father was born in Blackrod . In Lancashire . I was speaking to a relative of mine who I haven't seen for a long time , and they agreed that there was a auntie in Glasgow , as my mum and dad would visit her when in Scotland . Thanks

I have been looking for a reason why people would move to Scotland in the 1830s , a lot of Irish people were encouraged to move there to have a better quality of life and there was a shortage of workers . It was a big pull factor . The same reason may have applied to people moving from England . The living in the court houses was probably horrendous , and I suppose if you thought it would be better you would take a chance .

Have you looked back on this thread yet?

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/F...+grimshaw+1854

I think you would do better to find out exactly who this aunt or great aunt was who you used to visit in Scotland/Glasgow. If she is a descendant of family in Scotland from much further back I don't see how she can be your aunt or great aunt, but it might be simpler to work out if we knew who she was.

So you are thinking about the paternal great-grandfather of William Grimshaw b 1854 in Glasgow?

From that other thread we know his father was b about 1825-9ish in Wigan/Blackrod (various census records). When that William Grimshaw married Ellen Callard in 1844 he didn't give a father's name at the marriage, but you have his father as William Grimshaw b Backrod?

Please could you post up everything you know about William sr from Blackrod, so we don't repeat the same lookups. Thanks.

I see two years ago we spent time unsuccessfully trying to sort out the baptism for illegitimate William X b about 1825-9.

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/F...rod#post315396

We seem to have given up before coming to a conclusion. Did you find anything more? I'm a but confused as to how his paternal grandfather is a Grimshaw when his father seems to be unknown (ie the great-grandfather and grandfather of William b 1854).

No we didn't find anything else out from that . So the matter was unconcluded And the trail went cold as we couldn't find the right person .

I'm not sure which post you are referring to.

Presumably post #17.

Hi , I am trying to carry on with looking for the birth of William callen in Lancashire around 1801 I'm going by that date as rough idea of age from 1841 census . As his name may have not changed until later . As I have seen his daughters baptism Ellen on paper and it does say fathers name William callen . So when I see that the birth that was found in Ashton of a William calland may not be him ,or the one in Haigh . Can I have your thoughts on that .

Surname spellings didn't tend to be fixed at that time, so Callen and Calland could easily be the same person.

So do you think he was born callen or calland as is name on her birth certificate is Callen . And would he have been given the document ? Thanks

If he is the one who married Cicely Walker (in 1823) then he "made his mark" in the marriage register, i.e. wrote an X instead of signing his name, as did she, so it looks likely that they couldn't read or write, and would not have known how their surname should be spelt, regardless of whether they were given certificates.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...nSearchResults

Yes I understand , but I am going off Ellen's birth certificate where it says her father is William Callen . But I understand that could have not been how their name was written later . It's only a odd persons certificates I've seen where they have done a signiture . But if I am searching for a person named calland and they are a callen ,surely I am not going to find the correct person. And that's what I want to try and avoid

They are both just different versions of the same name. The same person could have been written down as either version at different times.

That's why many sites have an option for variable spellings. Having said that, you may need quite a lot of experience with a site to learn how their spelling options work - some sites will give a lot more variations than others. On Ancestry I don't use any of the spelling variant options, preferring to control the results myself. Searching for this person I might try Cal*n*, to cover the chances of there being one of two Ls in the middle and a N somewhere towards then end of the name!

Names might easily be spelled more than one way within the course of a single document, so don't think of it as a name change - just phonetic spelling.

Yes I understand Its up to who is doing th transcript ,and theresagoodchqncethey may mispell them . Thanks

Hi ,Merry in the earlier post you found a birth of a William calland in Haigh , if this is my relative is there any way of proving that it's him ? And I am now going to try and trace William and cicelys children going forwards in Wigan , perhaps a few didn't survive but it's worth trying to see where they went etc . Thanks

The All Saints, Wigan baptism record is more helpful than most in that it tells you the baby was a second son and also the maiden name of the mother and the names of her parents.

Absolute proof is difficult, but you would need to look and see what happened to the parents and siblings of this William, plus look for an alternative future for the child baptised in 1796. Discovering whether the family stayed in the same place or not, plus whether there were any later connections between members of the family should help you to determine if it's likely this William is your William or not.

EDIT: remember Haigh is the other side of Wigan from Ashton in Makerfield and we also don't know which Ashton William was referring to on the 1851 census.

Hi ,yes I understand , it is difficult , but it's interesting , places like Ashton in makerfield near Wigan had mines surrounding the area ,and lots of miners moved around for work in the area , so seeing William living in Ashton wouldn't have been unusual .and is marriage in Warrington again not unusual . Because that is certainly him marrying cicely Walker . Who was from Upholland .these places are all in reach with one another . So I will try and find link as you have suggested . Thanks

HI I think the census mentioning Ashton is him as cicely is there . But like you said we don't know what Ashton it was Ashton under lyne is in Cheshire and Ashton is approx four miles from Wigan . and he has put county Lancashire . But whether he would have known county or not I wouldn't know . I have looked on st Thomas online in Ashton in makerfield which used to come under Winwick . There are plenty of Callands on them but I couldn't find a matching date for Williams birth I will see if I can check the Ashton under lyne . Just has a matter of course . Thanks

I don't think Ashton-under-Lyne has ever been in Cheshire. It's currently part of Greater Manchester and was historically in Lancashire. Ashton upon Mersey, on the other hand, did used to be in Cheshire.

Hi ,Merry , your right , so it is in Lancashire . So really he still could have been born there . So I am no wiser lol I checked the Ashton under lyne records and a lot of the church records only start late 1800 s . But I'll do another search .

I note that, for what it's worth, William and Cicely were living in Ashton in Makerfield in 1834.

Which church were you looking at? St Michael's start in the 1650s!

Hi ,I'm having no luck finding Williams birth even on the online parish clerks . So am stuck for now .

So have you eliminated the one in 1796?

I think , the date of births don't tally , the census says he was born in Ashton whichever Ashton , born around 1798 the other with mother Ann lea was born in Haigh which is at least five miles away . I don't have a clue your probably the best one to say which is correct or not . Then I can at least eliminate one . Thanks

I think 1796 is around 1798! As I've said before, you need to trace the family of Wm and Ann forward to try and identify if there is a reason the 1796 baptism can't be your William. For instance if he died at a different time or married someone else etc.

Also look at the names of his siblings and see if any of those names are repeated in his family and/or the families of his siblings.