Help - DNA match and a Wingfield conundrum again
 

This another long story sorry, but I have put everything I know because I know it's frustrating to find stuff only to then find out I already knew or had it.

I have a DNA match on Ancestry of:
Shared DNA:*30 cM*across*2 segments
Unweighted shared DNA:*44 cM
Longest segment:*36 cM

I know it's low but I am interested because I think the match is a Wingfield and I have some mysteries of missing siblings, which I find so frustrating, of my 2nd Great Grandmother Emma Wingfield. Its the only name I recognise in the the tree of this DNA match.

Note: this possible match is named Emma Wingfield too, spelt Winfield on trees.

The children's relationship on the 1881 census is complicated because Pierce was married before which a lot of trees with this couple does not show and the ones I have looked at stop at Emma nothing before her marriage.

Emma married Pierce Patrick Driscoll in 1879. Pierce died in 1885

Marriage

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...=successSource

Death of Pierce (father)

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...Y1MTMwMTcyOS4w

It was a Roman Catholic marriage, Pierce's heritage is Irish, no full cert online so I sent for the certificate to see what Emma put for father's name.

It has John Wingfield occupation; Provisions Dealer. Could be true, could be a lie. On census she says she was born in Dalston, Hackney, London in approx 1857. I cannot find a possible birth on the GRO, FreeBMD or Ancestry.

I worked out the daughter named Mary isn't Emma's daughter but Margaret and son Pierce is. Pierce was married before to Margaret Howey transcribed as Hewey on Ancestry.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...=successSource

Mary
DRISCOLL, MARY CATHERINE - HOWEY
GRO Reference: 1873 J Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK
Volume 08B Page257

Margaret

DRISCOLL, MARGARET ELLEN - WINGFIELD
GRO Reference: 1880 D Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK
Volume 01D Page 245

Pierce

DRISCOLL, PIERCE PATRICK - WINGFIELD
GRO Reference: 1884 D Quarter in POPLAR Volume 01C Page 649

Emma married again after Pierce's death to Henry Moorhouse and Emma, Margaret and Pierce plus another daughter Adeline (birth reg below) emigrated to the USA. I think Mary may have died or married early on.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...Y1MTMwMzI5MC4w

Can't find full cert online will probably have to send for one but I will go to the Essex site to check so hold fire on that.
.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...;successSource')

MOORHOUSE, ADELINE CATHERINE -WINGFIELD
GRO Reference: 1891 J Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 148

I can't find Emma before the 1879 marriage to Pierce a few possibilities in 1871 but birth place not London, servant, but up north which is possibly how she met him but more frustratingly I can't even find one in 1861 when she would have been too young to be on her own.

I was looking at a Emma Wingfield born in St Giles to a Hannah Murray plus another child Henry, but not sure at all about this. This Emma was illegitimate so that doesn't help.

MURRAY, EMMA -
GRO Reference:*1859 M Quarter in ST GILES & ST GEORGE Volume 01B Page 401

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...5f9239a7be2dc1

Thank you, if you want to ask something before you go of searching please let me.

So this is them in 1881?
Pierce Driscoll Head
Married Male 33 1848 Schoolmaster Poplar, Middlesex, England
Emma Driscoll Wife
Married Female 24 1857 - Dalston, Middlesex, England
Mary C Driscoll Daughter
Single Female 7 1874 Scholar Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Margaret E Driscoll Daughter
Single Female 0 1881 - Bermondsey, Surrey, England

Do you have shared matches with other people with Wingfields in their trees? Or any other clues to suggest that Wingfield is the link?

Oh, and who were the witnesses on the certificate you do have? And can Emma write?

There is a John Wingfield who married an Emma Embelin in Stepney in 1857. Any chance tey might be the parents? The transcript is on Ancestry, but I can't see the original yet.

Birth found for this couple:
WINGFIELD, JOHN HENRY EMBELIN
GRO Reference: 1858 J Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 533

I'm still looking.

There are a lot of missing bits of the 1861 census, so she could easily have been in one of those.

WINGFIELD, CHARLES REUBEN EMBELIN
GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 495

WINGFIELD, WALTER EMBELIN
GRO Reference: 1870 J Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 541

No daughters so far.

That John Wingfield is a bootmaker, so it may just be a tempting red herring.

Yes

Difficult one, but the answer is yes but this person matches with two of my three closest matches one is my first cousin, my mum's sister's daughter. But they are so far down my tree that gives other possibilities. I am assuming the Sayer marriage to my Emma Wingfield is the connection to them.

This match matches with shared matches in the USA but they have only got as far as Emma on their trees like the first match. Which is why I think Emma Wingfield is the connection.

However this person matches some people in Australia.

Now these people, that have trees, from what I can see without closer inspection don't have Wingfields in their direct ancestor line but I will have to have a closer look. I do have very low matches, which I won't see even if they do match with first DNA because of the low match, in Australia from two women/sisters that were transported at different times for the same offence currency fraud a gang of them in fact.

Jane Wingfield and her older sister Elizabeth Wingfield who were, from my research, my 3rd Great Grandfather Daniel Wingfield's younger sisters, confusion there too because I think they had a different mother, both named Jane so only half sisters which might account for the low matches.

Jane (married a George Fieldhouse) and Elizabeth (Married first Edward Clouder and the second John Barter) but they are so low matches they don't match with first DNA match but one of them matches with and is managed by the person who does match first DNA match who doesn't seem to Wingfield in his tree. Both women died young in their 30s.

Witnesses Louise Fleming and John Barton there is a correction on Louisa's surname can't read it but looks it was a spelling mistake.

I don't know if she could write because all the certificate looks like the same handwriting and it's very good and no X marks the spot on the Groom, Bride or witnesses.

Sorry I have to go do something but will look for Emma's marriage on the Essex site when I get back.

Can't find marriage cert online but it looks like Henry was born in the USA which probably why they went there.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...=successSource

The Emma you found in 1861, could this be her in 1871:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...1&pId=28999691


Now called Collins, but mother Hannah, tailoress, and brother Henry, with younger sibs.

Dur, yes of course it is: mother Mary Murray there as well.

Here is daughter Annie:
COLLINS, ANNIE LOUISA MURRAY GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in WESTMINSTER Volume 01A Page 303

And tis is Emma's baptism:


https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...&pId=150123670

Yes it is now as a Collins must see if I can find her on census with the name Collins or a marriage.

I think this them with another daughter Sarah, can't find a birth registration in the area.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...;successSource')

So it can't be the Emma I am looking for because my one married Pierce in 1879 and is on the 1881 census with him.

Bum. But at least that eliminates her.

Here is a John Winfield, provision dealer, on the 1881 census, but nowhere near Dalston!

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ce&pId=2673680

Thank you how did you find it I spent most of yesterday afternoon and evening looking!

I searched on FMP for John Winfield or Wingfield with provision in the keyword field. Then I looked on Ancestry when I had some census info since I haven't got an FMP sub. But I doubt that he is the right one, i.e. your Emma's father.

You're probably right of course but you never know, I am missing a John Wingfield born 1828 although born in London. I can only hope. I will do a bit of digging about to see what comes up.

I have been in and out of trees in Australia and the USA. Also NSW and Tasmanian BMDs, just looking for snippets or just one clue who she was. I think I will send for her second marriage to Henry Moorhouse to see what her father's name was on that one.

Update: Recieved second marriage certificate for Emma Driscoll nee Wingfield and Henry Moorhouse 1890.

Father John Wingfield no occupation but now deceased. Witnesses John Fortune and Emma Buckley.

Emma's address 204 Victoria Dock Road, Custom House.

Consistence with lies or it was the truth.

Recapping:
Emma first marries in 1879 in Shoreditch to Pierce, a widower with small children.
Subsequent children born in the London area.
On that first marriage, she says her father is John, a provisions dealer. On the next marriage she maintains that his name is John, but simply says he is deceased.

You can't find her (or him!) before the first marriage, and there are never recognisable family members with her on the census.

Am I right so far?

Yes except Pierce Driscoll had one daughter by his first wife Margaret Howey.

Both Margaret Ellen and Pierce Patrick were Emma's they both travelled to USA in 1891 including Adeline by Henry Moorhouse with Emma, while in the USA Adeline died aged 4 and Emma had another two sons and a daughter by Henry Moorhouse named Henry, Lillian and Walter.

I have been looking at John Wingfields who died between 1879 and 1890.

One sticks out John Wingfield born approx 1811 died 1884 Poplar but that is as far as I got he is on 1881 census in his own Dock Labourer.

Wingfield John 73 Poplar 1c 383

A provisions dealer may be a term to impress a new husband.

I found this in 1901:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/reco...1%2F0013044969


John Thomas Wingfield widower aged 73 retired baker, blind, born limehouse, with a live in servant and her relations.


Where was your missing John born?

Southwark.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...ae16f3d7c73a46

But the one you have found was born 1811. Could his birth date really be so far out?

No but it could be a Wingfield connected the next tier up. On the DNA match the ones I have seen seem to be descended from Pierce Patrick but I am trying to find one descended from the Moorhouse children because in those Pierce Patrick Driscoll trees it is very possible it could be someone else (can't see it though) other than Emma but my Wingfields are apt to dissappear frequently.

Since I'm clearly not going to move from this armchair, who were your disappearing John's parents and his siblings? Do they appear on a census in 51? Just so I know who I should be looking for. If I've got a date and place of birth for one, I should be able to latch onto the family.

My 3rd great grandfather Daniel's siblings

John Wingfield <----- This one probably married an Agnes Burgess
B 1800 Southwark, London, England

Links I have neither confirmed or dismissed.

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree...90968159/hints

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree...90968159/hints

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui...d=422090968159

William Wingfield
B 1806 • Holborn London, England

Francis Wingfield
Bi 1813 • St Pancras, London, England

I have never been sure these 3 are Daniel's siblings but maybe.


My 2nd great grandmother Emma's (Daniel's daughter) siblings.

Henry Wingfield
B 22 July 1819 • Shoreditch, London, England

John Dorset Wingfield
B 6 July 1828 • Shoreditch, London, England

I have never found Henry for sure after the age of 12 when he was baptised.

The last sighting of John is 1841

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/...=try&h=7793019

Could have been transported to Australia, a likely John on the criminal registers keeps popping up.

Don't let this distract you from other things Phoenix.

This conundrum is so infuriating, going around circles.

For all we know, she could be a daughter of Emma before she married.
Also, when Ann Wingfield is buried in 1860, she was living at Victoria Road, DALSTON.

Emma who? My 2nd great grandmother Emma was born in 1842 she was the youngest, her sister Sarah was 14 years older and her sister Ann was 8 years older. The Victoria Rd in Dalston is in a totally different area to Victoria Dock Road in Custom House which is Plaistow area.

The Dalston connection and the name Wingfield is why I think Emma Wingfield who married Pierce Driscoll is the DNA connection. I considered that she was Sarah's daughter Emma who was born in 1857 but she was registered as Emma Ann Palmer father the elusive Frederick Palmer Seaman. This Emma could quite clearly use the Palmer name and Frederick as her father it's all there on her birth certificate whether its true or not so no need to use her mother's maiden name of Wingfield.

I lose Emma Ann Palmer after the 1861 census.

Remember I can't find a birth registration in that area that would fit this Emma Wingfield.

Ann Wingfield, presumably one of Daniel's daughters died 1860 and was buried 23 Dec 1860, in Victoria Park Cemetery. Her adress is given as Victoria Road Dalston: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...=successSource
It's not inconceivable that she had an illegitimate daughter, born were she was living when she died, who she called after her sister Emma. I'm not sayiing that that is the case, just that it is a possible scenario, with one member of your Wingfield family actually living in the same district where the mysterious Emma was born.

Yes but can't find birth registration for any Emma Wingfield in that area which would be Hackney or at a stretch Shoreditch in the time frame. I could see no illegitimate births at all anywhere.

Perhaps her birth wasn't registered? A fair percentage were not, especially before the 1870s when the rules were tightened. I expect the percentage of unregistered births was probably higher for illegitimate births and also for those born in a city or other busy place where you could more easily pass under the radar.

Yes - I don't think I will ever solve this. Hoping for a DNA match with a descendent of the Moorhouse children to confirm it is Emma that is the link.

I did think she may be Ann's daughter, I am not judging them I wasn't there they were very poor, but living the way they did, both Ann and Sarah seem to be living at the same adress of Victoria Road and taking into account Sarah's children, I can't see that Ann would not have had a child a some point.

The Ann who died in 1860 was only 23 though, so not sure she fits well :(