Dorothy Bibby
 

Dorothy Bibby aged 6 dies in 1936 in Wales and is buried in Gorton Cemetery in Manchester with my great great aunt and uncle, Pamela Holden and Harry Holden (siblings).

Dorothy Bibby appears to be the only child of Leonard Bibby and Martha Holden, who married in Manchester in 1927.

Martha Bibby nee Holden appears to have died in 1937 aged 35.

I cannot get a handle on Martha Holden, who must surely be a relative - but I have no missing Martha Holdens. Before I send for a marriage cert, can anyone suggest anything else? I was hoping they might be on the 1939 register but of course if Martha died in 1937, she won't be.

OC

She isn't the Martha Holden who was born in 1901 in Burnley (daughter of Fred) since that one married an Arthur Parker Wilton in 1935.

Thankyou Kate, that's one crossed off the list!

OC

And the one born 1900 in Swinton, daughter of William and Martha (nee Nicholls) evidently died before 1911.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...96031600/facts

Did Harry marry someone who already had a child called Martha who took his name? (straw clutching!)

I see the father of your Harry and Pamala is the dreaded boy only a mother could love. It's very sneaky of you to have him on the edge of this thread without telling us. :rolleyes:

Lol Merry! I dare not mention his name in case everyone runs for cover.

No, Harry never married. Family legend says he was a confirmed bachelor, ahem. However, that legend has cropped up elsewhere in my tree and proved to be wrong.

I have developed an extremely speculative theory which, if correct, means Martha is indeed a relative but not a Holden one. Back with the details later.

OC

No, the theory doesn't work unfortunately, unless Martha Holden was born in 1907 and not 1902, which doesn't seem likely.

I may have to get the marriage certificate. There must surely be a family connection!

OC

Where was Martha Bibby buried? Isn't it odd that her daughter appears to buried with relatives, but Martha isn't even in the same cemetery?

Yes, very odd. Can't find Martha Bibby's burial details. Of course, I may have picked the wrong Martha Bibby death!

OC

There are other Holden/Bibby marriages, just that the one you picked is good for place. Of course Ms Holden might have been previously married and so the marriage to Mr Bibby could be hidden.

I keep wondering about why Dorothy died in Aled district.

I thought I would look for widower Leonard Bibby in 1939, but there aren't any! There's only one marriage for a Leonard Bibby between 1937 and 1939 and he looks as if he was born in 1910, and was probably on his first marriage. Of course the 'right' Leonard might have been in the military.

Yes, wondered why Dorothy died in Wales. Perhaps she was convalescing! TB?

So strange. The Holdens must have been close to this Bibby family as you wouldn't normally offer a random stranger a place in your family grave and a burial is normally quickly arranged anyway. Nor would you get in touch with a passing acquaintance to ask if they had a spare grave plot.

Another puzzle to add to all the other Holden puzzles.

OC

Maybe the first cert you should get is Dorothy's birth or death cert, rather than the possible parents' marriage cert.

Yes, I agree. Probably Dorothy's birth certificate would be best, in case her parents are not who we expect!

I've just deleted a very long post detailing the life of Leonard Bibby b 10 Mar 1905 at Gorton (his dob is on his baptism record) who I thought might be Martha's husband (just in case it came in useful later on!). He moved to Hertfordshire, married Gwendoline North in the late 1950s and died in 1970. She died in 2000.

I deleted the long post because I've just found the 1905 Leonard in 1939 married to Mary b 16 May 1905, living in Luton Beds. No one else in their household. There are no marriages for a Leonard Bibby to a Mary 1937-1939, so I assumed (lol) he was never Martha's husband.

However, when I look at marriages for Leonard Bibby 1922-1939 there are still none to a Mary.

Now I'm thinking this 1905 Leonard could still be a candidate for being Martha's husband as there is this marriage:

Leonard Bibby Jan 1954 Jan-Feb-Mar Luton Bedfordshire spouse Mary W Davenport Or Gannon

There's a Mary Gannon (no middle initial) marrying Arthur Davenport in 1924 in Manchester and there's a couple of Mary Gannon births in the right Q in 1905 - one in Manchester. So, if Leonard and Mary were living together in 1939, not married, then Leonard could still have previously been Martha's husband.

Mary Gannon didn't die until 1963 in Luton. Hopefully she and Leonard were divorced as he married Gwendoline North in 1959!

Now this post is just as long as it was originally, but with less detail! lol

There is an online tree named Bibby Tree but it is private and the only information I can see is that Martha Holden was born in Clitheroe, Lancashire in 1905, on the GRO this is the entry:

Name : HOLDEN, MARTHA MMS: WALMSLEY
GRO Reference: 1905 D Quarter in CLITHEROE Volume 08E Page 255

Mother's maiden surname Walmsley.

Edit to add possible marriage of possible Martha's parents but it was cancelled so no father of Henry!

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/...ff=&ml_rpos=13

Name: Henry Holden
Gender: Male
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 3 Jun 1899
Parish: Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Search Photos: Search for 'Blackburn' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Spouse: Margaret Hannah Walmsley
Register Type: Parish Register

More confusion I think there is another marriage but Margaret Hannah is now a Whalley unless it is another Margaret Hannah, coincidence!

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/...off=&ml_rpos=3


Name: Henry Holden
Gender: Male
Age: 24
Birth Year: abt 1876
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 14 Apr 1900
Parish: Blackburn, St Matthew, Lancashire, England
Search Photos: Search for 'Blackburn, St Matthew' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Spouse: Margaret Annie Whalley
Spouse Age: 22
Father: William Holden
Spouse Father: Edward Whalley
Register Type: Parish Register

Thanks Kate, yes, I think you are right, I need to get Dorothy's bc first as this is looking like the usual beggar's muddle.

Merry - that's interesting, thankyou for trudging through all that! There are Davenports on this side of the tree but not seeing a direct connection yet. I have just thought of a very tenuous connection to Wales which may of course be completely irrelevant. Joseph Grimshaw Holden's eldest son Joseph Foden Holden,(and brother of Pamela and Harry) had a scandalous divorce in about 1934 (oh the shame) and in 1938 he remarried one Edna Bell, a widow whose first husband died in Wales in 1933 and was the son of a Doctor. It still doesn't explain the Bibbys though.

Maggie, that's an interesting find! I do have a hobby tree for Darwen which goes sideways into Clitheroe etc. Off for a look. Thans for the tip off.

OC

Maggie, looking at the 1911 census, the father of that Martha is called John Holden, so I think this must be the marriage:

Marriages Sep 1899 (>99%)

Ffelan Maurice Clitheroe 8e 679
HOLDEN John Clitheroe 8e 679
MILES Charlotte Clitheroe 8e 679
Walmsley Mary Ann Clitheroe 8e 679

In 1911 the dad is John Holden born about 1868 in Aighton. He's a farmer and a widower.

All the children in the following census household have mmn Walmsley.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true

The father of John b 1868 is Michael Holden b about 1839 in Bailey Lancs.

Of course who is to say the Bibby tree has the correct Martha!

So are we saying your Holdens paid for this grave when Dorothy died in 1936 and then were buried there themselves - in Pamela's case almost 40 years later? What happened to their unmarried sister Ellen?

Sorry, have been in and out all day.

First in the grave was Harry Holden, then Dorothy Bibby, then eventually Pamela. Nellie died in 1940 and is buried with her parents. All the Holden men were Masons and I wondered if that might have been something to do with it but it still comes back to why you would offer a space in your family grave to someone unless they were a relative.I

OC

NOOOOO!!!!

The Harry and Pamela Holden buried with Dorothy Bibby are not MY Harry and Pamela Holden.

My red faced apologies to you all and I am so sorry to have wasted your time.

*slinks off thread*

OC

lol Never mind! At least you didn't get as far as buying Dorothy's certificate. :D

I've just found that Gorton cemetery records are on Ancestry. :d:d:d

I had googled the name of the cemetery and found their own search facility but, without a subscription, it only told me the names of the dec'd. Everything clear as day on Ancestry! Had I seen that, hopefully I would have realised that Pamela b 1880 and Harry b 1959 were not going to be siblings!

Perhaps we should be telling the Bibby tree owner that the Martha they want probably isn't the one from Clitheroe, but might be this one, even though she is apparently too young. Her mother is the Pamela who is in Gorton Cemetery!

Births Mar 1907
HOLDEN Martha Rochdale 8e 72

I don't know why I'm still looking at this, but mildly interesting to note that according to the Ancestry transcription, the cemetery buried Harry Holden in March 1981 and he was aged 22. There are no Harry/Henry Holden deaths to fit with that, so who did they bury?!!!

Oh, they buried Martha's younger brother:

Deaths Mar 1931 (>99%)
Holden Harry 22 Manchester S. 8d 138

Cemetery transcription not to be trusted!!

Leaving this thread now lol