Help needed
 

hi , I am still trying to establish ellen callen s mother ciceley callen's maiden name . Ellen born in 1824 princess st wigan . Can't go any further than this , I have been told that a marriage of William grimshaw and ellen calland in 1844 are the same person , but the dates don't tally . Plus I have got ellen callen's child's record from Glasgow and she is definetly Callen on the certificate and not calland as seen in a marriage of 1844 all saints . I don't know if it was common to change names , but maybe someone else will know I need to establish her parents roots , as there are plenty of callens in Scotland , Any help gratefully received . Thanks

Welcome to the forum! :)

There are two baptisms for babies named Ellen Callen dau of Wm and Ciceley, though at the moment I can't find a burial for the first child:

Ellen Callen b 1 Feb 1824 bap 17 Apr 1824 Wigan, All Saints, father William Callen, mother Ciceley Callen


Ellen Callen b 1 May 1825 bap 17 Jul 1825 Wigan, All Saints, father William Callen, mother Cicely Callen

The second Ellen was born baptised from Princess St.

Other children who appear to have been born to this couple are:

Margaret 1827
Elizabeth 1829
Richard 1832
Ciceley 1837
Margaret 1839
William 1841
Peter 1845

There may be others as I didn't try every permutation!

So we might expect them to have married about 1824 and they should be on the 1841 census and hopefully later censuses too.

This may be their marriage:

Marriage: 31 Aug 1823 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
William Calland - (X), This Parish
Ciceley Walker - (X), This Parish
Witness: Edwd Fell; William Webster
Married by Banns by: Jonathan Topping Curate
Register: Marriages 1818 - 1824, Page 275, Entry 823
Source: LDS Film 1562960


What child was born in Glasgow?

I am moving this thread to our Research board.

These names seem familiar to me - I think we need to read through this old thread:

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/f...hlight=calland

Also this one:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/f...hlight=calland

Callen / Calland would not be a case of changing their name, just people pronouncing / spelling it differently. A lot of people could not read and write in those days, so they would not be able to tell the clerks etc how to spell their name.

it's not so much a change of name but when people were illiterate names were spelled how they sounded by those writing them down, so Callen/Callan/Callard etc could easily be the same people.

Must dash now....

Bearkins, when you say that the dates for Ellen don't tally, do you mean because she is 21 on her marriage in 1844 but she was really a bit younger? It was quite common for people to claim to be 21 when they got married because it meant they didn't need to get their parents' permission.

Names could vary a great deal. As others have commented, this wasn't intentional as large numbers of people couldn't read or write at the time in questions. Curates, vicars, priests or whoever wrote down the names as they heard them spoken.

In Scotland, matters were further complicated in that names were transliterated from Gaelic in many parts of the country. Added to this, there was a process of anglicising surnames. For example, McGilthighnich became McIlheany and eventually Shaw. Mac prefixes were dropped from some names. If there is a Scottish connection, then you would also need to look at McCallan as a variant of Callen.

Thanks Kate.

The marriage record for Wm and Ciceley and the baptisms for their children are now available as images on ancestry.

Looking at the other threads, this is what appears on the 1841 census:

Ince
William Calland, 40, coal miner
Cicely, 35, labourer
Elllen, 15, coal miner
Mary, 15 labourer
Elizabeth, 13
Richard, 10
Thomas, 6
Margaret, 2

All born in county.

I can find the following births/baptisms on Ancestry:

Ellen, born 1 Feb 1824, bapt 17 April 1824
Ellen, born 1 May 1825, bapt 17 July 1825
Margaret, born 10 March 1827, bapt 8 April 1827
Elizabeth born 7 Feb 1829, bapt 5 July 1829
Ciceley, born May 1837, bapt 13 June 1837

The 1851 census states that Ciceley senior's place of birth is Upholland, Lancashire.

There are two baptisms for Ciceley Walker in Upholland. The first is in January 1803, but this child was buried in February. the second was baptised on 25 March 1804. Father's name is Richard.

There are some more in post #2 but I didn't put the full dates as I was supposed to be making breakfast!

Hi , thanks for all the info , now need to establish where wlm callen was born , that may prove a little more difficult . Any help gratefully recieved . Thanks

hi , ellen callen and William grimshaws sons James and William were born in Glasgow in 1854 and 1856 . I think they may have had another child in Scotland . As I seem to recall visiting who my mother called aunt in Glasgow in the 50s and 60s , and my father would take us up sometimes to visit , but I have no recollection if it was Lanarkshire or not . They seem to move back to live in skelmersdale as they appear on the 1861 census . Thanks

Thanks to all of you for the much needed help , I'm afraid I don't look out of the box sometimes and stick rigidly to dates names etc ,and then I become unstuck . So thanks for all your pointers with regards to names changing etc .

Ciceley was a widow in 1861, so we only have William's place of birth from the 1851 census to go on. He said he was 55 and born in Ashton. There are several Ashtons in Lancashire: Ashton in Makerfield, Ashton on Ribble and Ashton under Lyne.

The best fit I could find is this one:


William Calland born 31 Dec 1795 bap 24 Jan 1796 Wigan, Lancashire, second son of William Calland of Haigh, weaver and Ann, dau of Thomas and Betty Lea.

Wigan is about 4 miles from Ashton in Makerfield.

However, my knowledge of the geography off Lancashire is around zero, so I'll leave this for others to take a look before looking for further entries for this family, in case anyone else thinks another entry might be more likely.

Yes, the 1861 census you mention shows three children were born in Scotland. (Copied from one of the old threads):

The 1871 census shows two further children, Mary 8 and Peter 5 both born in Ince, Lancs They were living at Upholland, Lancs at that date.

Surely you wouldn't have been visiting the same people 100 years later though?!!

There are a few other Ashtons in Lancashire as well as these, but I haven't found a more likely baptism yet. But Haigh is the other side of Wigan from Ashton in Makerfield.

There are some ancestry trees which have the William born 31 Dec 1795 down as marrying an Esther and dying in 1843 in Ince, but they all seem to be in a complete muddle and copied from each other, so they could well be wrong. There was a child called William Calland who died in Ince in 1843.

...plus William is on the 1851 census.

Yes, but we don't know whether the William on the 1851 census is the one born 31 Dec 1795 in Haigh - that's what we're trying to prove or disprove.

I had a bad feeling that might be the case!

It was an observation on the trees which had bumped him off prematurely!

Sorry, Shona, I'm still not with you - are you saying that the William who married Esther was still alive on the 1851 census, as well as the William who this thread is about?

I just have to ask if it's possible that William Callen Ellen's father could have been born in Glasgow ? And not in Ashton in Makerfield as there are a few William Callen s born there ? I definetly had a aunt or a relative in that area . That's why I think that William could have been Scottish .?

Anything is possible, though he did say born in Lancs in 1841 and born in Ashton Lancs in 1851.

Whilst in theory it's possible he was born outside of Lancashire, I don't understand your reasoning for wondering about this - you say you had an aunt or relative in Glasgow, but what does that have to do with a man born in the 18th Century?

hi , One of the calland clan is trying to establish ,ann lea's birth place from post 13 , she is saying the only one that firsts is a one in Calne wiltshire In 1775 ,which is a lon way from lancashire . i also found a birth of a ann lea in 1776 in ashton under lyne ? have you any ideas . There isn't many births to fit that comes up on Family search ,but there may be more on Ancestry . Thanks

So you are looking for the baptism of this bride:

Marriage: 19 Jul 1785 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
William Calland - Haigh
Ann Lea - Haigh
Witness: Peter Grimshaw; Gerd. Bancks
Married by Banns by: Page Godfrey
Notes: [Bride signed Ann Ley]
Source: LDS Film 1885689

I don't see why she would be born about 1775/6 because that would make her about 10 when she married! Perhaps you have a burial for her with her age recorded? If you do, are you sure it's the right Ann Calland?

So we are looking for a baptism for an Ann Lea, parents Thomas and Betty (from post #13).

I would expect the issue to be that there are far too many possible baptisms rather than only one in the wrong county and at a date that doesn't work!

I've only looked at Lancs OPC (where I'm assuming you will have looked already) and did ten years either way of 1760. That gave me five matches, so you would need to use your local knowledge to decide if any are not likely geographically and also try and establish what happened to each of these Anns to see if you can rule any out (eg if any of them died young etc).

Baptism: ? Jan 1749/50 St Laurence, Chorley, Lancashire, England
Ann Leigh - Daughter of Thomas Leigh
Register: Baptisms 1709 - 1768, Page 45, Entry 29
Source: LDS Film 93703

Baptism: 8 Jul 1753 St Mary the Virgin, Eccles, Lancashire, England
Anne Lee - Daughter of Thos. Lee
Abode: Pendleton
Source: Manchester Central Library

Baptism: 31 Mar 1754 St Laurence, Chorley, Lancashire, England
Ann Leigh - Daughter of Thomas Leigh
Register: Baptisms 1709 - 1768, Page 50, Entry 8
Source: LDS Film 93703

Baptism: 19 Sep 1762 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Ann Lee - Daughter of Thos. Lee & Betty
Abode: Turton
Source: LDS Family Search

Baptism: 6 Feb 1767 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Ann Lee - Daughter of Thomas Lee
Abode: Bedford
Register: Baptisms 1757 - 1769, Page 110
Source: LDS Film 1885648

hi ,did you also see the one in calne wiltshire 1765..?

what they are saying calland clan in the U.S if she was born far away from lancashire how would she end up there , the problem is ,i have no idea .

i also found a birth father thomas in newcastle under lyne . around 1766 so like you say there are many possibilities .thanks

No. Why would I be interested in that? It's far too late and in an unrealistic part of the country.

EDIT see post 33 re date.

What was he doing in 1766? Not being baptised I hope! Not if his daughter was married in 1785!

Why would you be looking in Newcastle under Lyme when there are dozens and dozens of Thomas Lea entries in Lancashire?

She doesn't need to have been born far away though, does she?

I think people need to grasp the fact that sometime it can be very difficult to work out the correct line for their tree, especially with common names and ordinary occupations in a given area. It can take years and years to get to the bottom of the data sometimes. Maybe even decades. Very often you never will.

Oh and BTW, the Ann Lea, dau of Thomas and Betty Lea who was bap in Calne in 1765 was buried in 1774 in Calne.

Hi ,i thought she could be born in in 1765/66as it would have made her 20 or 19 .

we are talking about ann married in 1885 , her birth is 1765 , i think we are getting mixed up somewhere . The clan calland are looking at her birth .

1785 not 1885.

Yes, sorry I went from the date you gave in your first post today which says:

So, you should have said 1765. I didn't notice the actual date was 10 years earlier because I was fed up with being taken on a wild goose chase to Wiltshire when she was probably born in Lancashire.

Anyway the Calne girl died in 1774, so forget her.

will explain to them , that shes out of the picture , and like you said it may be one of those things that we may never find her true birth . as long as they know . i think they should look closer to lancashire . But that's up to them .

Hi ,was checking the births on family search without a first name , and came across a birth reg in Wigan , for a mary Lea ,base daughter of elizabeth 1776 abode scholes , it's a stab in the dark , but mother Betty could be a elizabeth , and Mary could be a mary ann . Scholes is approx three or four miles from Haigh , which is a higher end of Wigan . What are your thoughts on possibilities ? thanks

But her father is Thomas Lea, according to post #13. Also a baptism in 1776 is too late isn't it? (making her aged 9 at her marriage)

You don't mention whether you have managed to eliminate all the baptisms I suggested in post #25.

Of those five baptisms, I would say these two are the most promising:

Baptism: 19 Sep 1762 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Ann Lee - Daughter of Thos. Lee & Betty
Abode: Turton
Source: LDS Family Search

Baptism: 6 Feb 1767 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Ann Lee - Daughter of Thomas Lee
Abode: Bedford
Register: Baptisms 1757 - 1769, Page 110
Source: LDS Film 1885648

If she is the first of these then she would be about 23 at the marriage in 1785. Bolton le Moors is under 10 miles from Wigan. The mother is recorded and she has the right first name.

The second baptism above, she would have been a minor at the marriage, which isn't mentioned, so perhaps less promising. Leigh is a couple of miles nearer to Wigan. From that baptism we don't know the name of Ann's mother.

However, I have not attempted to eliminate any of the baptisms I've suggested in post #25. Perhaps you could confirm if you have been able to discount any of them.

hi , I looked at the first baptism and that doesn't look too bad parents are correct . Turton abode is just outside of Bolton . Haigh being about 9 miles away . so it is a possibility.

So you need to look at burials and marriages in Bolton and surrounds to see if there's a possibility of Ann dying or marrying there which would eliminate her.

Do you have a burial age for your Ann? Do you know when she had her last child?

hi ,sorry ,i've no idea ,but will check what you've mentioned later to see if i can eliminate her thanks

hi I have found her last son Robert She had him in 1800