Wilhelmina Coralie Versigny FFMM
 

Name - "official" name and what they were known as
Wilhelmina Coralie, or Coralie Wilhelmina, or Coraly, or possibly Minie, sometimes Adrienne, Surnames are Versigny, Logsdon and Scriven
I think she has signed as witness at 2 of her children's marriages lovely handwriting but illegible to me, she has signed in a French looking name, suggesting that she never actually married and was using her maiden name on a legal document, but used slightly different names on both. When I've worked out how to post a link to them I'll add them here.
Date and place of birth
abt 1935 Paris France
Names of parents
Napoleon Versigny and Marie Adrienne Deseaux
Date and place of baptism - if applicable
No idea, ]
Details of each of his or her marriages - if any
lived as the wife of James Logsdon, first child born 1855, and also lived as wife of William Scriven from about 1881. No marriages found.
Occupation(s) - if any
None listed
Addresses where they lived (including county if in UK) - and please list which censuses you have or haven't found him/her on.

1841- Not in the country
1849- Arrived in London with her father
1851-
1861- 25 Lambeth St, Whitechapel, Middlesex
1871- 58 Quaker St, Christchurch Spitalfields, London
1881- 63 Victoria Street, West Ham, Essex
1891- 25 Regents Row, Shoreditch, London
1901- 1 Whitney Rd, Leyton, Essex
1911- 14 Amberley Road, Leyton, Essex
1917- 29 Darnley Road, Hackney (Death cert)

Date, place and cause of death
22nd April 1917 Hackney Infirmary, Broken thigh from accidental fall at home. Inquest held 25th April 1917

Date and place of burial / cremation.
Details of will / administration of their estate - if applicable
Memorial inscription - if any

This lady was a real puzzle to me, thank you for all the help/inspiration recieved

I cant get on with posting links and can't manage photobucket!!! so if anyone feels they could have a look at her signature for me the 2 weddings where she signed the register as a witness are listed below

Napoleon James Logsdon to Elizabeth Webb 1875
and
Annie Coraly Logsdon to Alfred Joseph Norton in 1877

Thanks for at least reading this.

Sue

The witness's name on Napoleon's marriage cert looks like Wilhelmina Coralie Versigny De Vere, and the witness's name on Annie's marriage cert is Coraly Adrienne Versigny Logsdon. The word Versigny looks identical on the two signatures but Coralie is spelt differently!

Thanks for looking at that Kite, my OH thought it looked like De Vere, couldn't get that first name! The spelling of Coralie is odd, I feel she is must be an educated person to write with such a hand, (That's probably the French education system for you!) So not being consistent with the spelling of her own name seems strange! And then the progression to using a double barrelled name to incorporate her OHs. If only we could get into their minds!

Just had another look at this, I had assumed both signatures were the same person, but the "Adrienne" bit would indicate otherwise, there is another daughter Ellen Adrienne, perhaps it is her that is witness, but she is only 13ish so unlikely.

I think there is a lot more to this family than meets the eye

The word Versigny is written identically in the two witness signatures, so I'm sure they must be written by the same person.

I agree with you Kite, I've printed the signatures to check. I think there is more to this woman than meets the eye! why on earth does an "educated" woman, change her name at the drop of a hat! I can understand verbal records being corrupted, but to change your name on your children's marriage records seems very odd!

OK.................this bird has to be related to the Ariels.......lol. Tries to confuse everyone...lol

I put a search in the 1861 census for Coralie born France. I got one hit. She is Coralie OWEN wife of George OWEN.

So I look for the marriage to see Coralie's maiden name......
FreeBMD has a marriage of George OWEN and Coralie Euphrosyne V MONTGOMERY in 1869???? So maybe not actually married in 1861.....lol

Also on the same page (but at a different area...lol) is a Wilhelmina Jaroha RUVSSENAERS.

Don't think they fit with yours.....but thought I'd add them for a laugh......(I'm gaining a very sick sense of humour).

Do you have the birth certs of any of her children? I'm just wondering what variation was given there?!

Name: James Logsdon
Estimated birth year: abt 1821
Year of Registration: 1884
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 63
District: St George in The East
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1c
Page: 273

Is this James? Seems a little too old....... I guess you can't find either of them in 1881? Have you found an alternative person who may belong to this death reg?

It's strange because there is a public tree on Ancestry which has a
Wilhelmina C. Logsdon b 23 April 1913 in Indiana with a father James P Logsdon (1884-1971), mother Cora Francis Mattingly. I know the dates (and place ;) )are wrong, but any connection?

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/404...on/-1658239852

Do you know whether Ellen Adrienne Logsdon married Robert Starling or John Wright and have you found them in 1891?

I think she married John Wright, but only because of the 1891 census.

Sorry not to have replied to all these, I've been out out all day.

Back on track tomorrow!

This is James her "husband" You are quite right, not been able to find any in 1881

There's a bap at Christ Church Spitalfields 27th Oct 1878 for Minie Logsdon dau of James (polisher) and Minie. Who on earth is this? The address given (50 Hanbury St) happens to be empty in 1881!

There is a birth registration for Minnie Logsden Jan-Mar 1877 Bethnal Green, likely to be the same person as in that baptism.

I can't work out who she is!! I'm sure it must be one of theirs! Wilhelmina's daughter Wilhelmina c 1857 was known as Minnie through most of her life, but lived, so seems unlikely to have had another child with the same name.

Hanbury St is closely linked with daughter Wilhelmina's husband's family, they lived and died there and got married from there (from the house that one of Jack the ripper's victims was found!- a few years before that event though) so it is quite possible that they lived there.

For years I have thought this ladies surname was Corralie, it is only 3 weeks ago that I realised that I was wrong. The simplest thing in the world would be to order daughter Wilhelmina's, why didn't I think of this earlier. Will order in the morning.

No sign of a marriage or death for that Minnie. Maybe after James died his widow returned to France with Minnie (if she is their child).

That could explain why there is no more that I can find for Wilhelmina Coralie, no death and on no more censuses.

Who registered James's death?

Good point Merry, I'll order that at the same time as Napoleon's birth

Oh, hang on - I thought you knew it was him! As he is five years older than he should be, should we be looking in case that's not his cert? (don't want you wasting your £9.50!)

Hmmmm, well having looked a bit more now, I have to say I can't find another candidate for that death record, so, unless it was a bad spelling of someone elses surname, it probably is him after all.

For all those lovely people who have replied to this thread, I thought I'd add this communication I have been having this week with someone with the same woman in their tree on Ancestry, No answers but interesting!


Hi there, I see you have the Logsdon family in your tree Wilhelmina (1835) and James (1826-1898) Logsdon are in my direct line, as I suspect they are yours. I descend from Wilhelmina Emma Logsdon (1859) I was wondering where you managed to find the parentage of Wilhelmina Coralie, I have puzzled over this for years and expect her baptism was in France. Have you any idea when she came to England? And have you ever found a marriage for her?
Would be interested to hear from you if you have the time
Sue




Hi. Yes it is very difficult and I have hit some real brick walls on this one. I know somewhere in our family tree there is a French ancestor (as a story in the family always has said that one of our ancestors was the Aide to Napoleon, and this line is where I think it comes from).

The 1861 and 1871 Census Records lists Wilhelmina (Wilhelmine) being born in Paris, France and being the wife of James Logsdon and they make her DOB as being 1935/1936.

The only record of birth I can find is the Record for 'Wilhelmine Sidonie de Layve' (6 April 1835).

I have not yet found any marriage fact.

Hope that this helps?

Richard




Hello Richard,
Thanks for your reply. It would be wonderful to have a link to Napoleon, On my Husband's side we have a link to Nelson!
I think we are the same with the 61/71 censuses, that is all I really have. Apart from I think she has signed Napoleon James Logsdon's Marriage record as a witness. And the name there is Wilhelmina Coralie Versigny de Vere. I have just sent for his birth cert in a hope to get her name. This could also indicate that they didn't actually marry. To add to the complication, the same person has signed as a witness to one of her daughter's marriages with different fornames but Versigny Logsdon as the surname. I am convinced the handwriting is the same!
Would you like me to let you know when my cert arrives?
Sue




Hi Sue
Many thanks for some extremely interesting information. I would be most grateful for any information that you have to share with me. I have contacted the International Napoleonic Society to see if they can help with a list of the Aides of Napoleon, thinking that I might be able to trace some information from them. I have not heard anything from them yet but will let you know if anything positive comes from it.
Kind regards
Richard

Oh my goodness, what do you make of this 1901 census, Ellen Adrienne Logsdon who married John Wright living with her mother!!! Corralie Servien
b1834 Paris, a British citizen. How many names can one woman use????

Name: Ellen Wright
[Ellen Seriven]
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1864
Relation: Head
Mother's Name: Coralie Seriven
Gender: Female
Where born: St George in The East, London, England
Civil parish: Leyton
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: Leyton
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: North Leyton
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 19
Household Members:
Name Age
Ellen Wright 37
Ellen Wright 18
John Wright 15
George Wright 13
Coralie Seriven 67
David Logsdon 21
Alice Logsdon 19


And, she is still around in 1911
LOGSDON, David Head Single M 31 1880 Cabinet Maker London Shoreditch
LOGSDON, George Brother Single M 24 1887 Cabinet Maker London Shoreditch
LOGSDON, John Brother Single M 15 1896 Cabinet Maker London Shoreditch
WRIGHT, Ellen Aunt Married M 46 1865 Cigar Maker London Stratford
SERIVEN, Coralie Grandmother Widow F 76 1835 Private Means France N K Resident

Haven't you found her death reg yet? :rolleyes::p

I think that surname should be SCRIVEN - she's on the 1881 census as Paris born.

*Wonders if she bothered marrying William Scriven?*

Not that I could see!

Oh I remember now, James Logsdon didn't die until 1884, but she wasn't married to him, so she may have married Wm instead?!!!

In 1891 she is a widow and the mother of Richard Webb! (whoever he is!)

Maybe she is the mother of his wife, Mrs Elizabeth Webb, aged 35 b Shoreditch?

Hmmmm......in 1861 and 1871 they (James and Wilhemina Logsdon)had no daughters called Elizabeth.

Richard Webb, cabinet maker is single in 1881 despite having several over 10 years children in 1891!! (maybe I have the wrong person?)

I think it's time I went and did something else!!!!!!!!

OMG!!

I said in 1891 Coralie was mother to Richard Webb or his wife Elizabeth. Well the children in the house include David Webb aged 10 b Hackney. I went back to 1881 and looked for David b Hackney and he is probably David Logsdon son of Napoleon. :confused::confused::confused::confused: So Coralie was mother to Elizabeth's prev husband??

But Elizabeth's name was Webb when she married Napoleon Logsdon in 1875 (head hurts).

:confused:Elizabeth's father was Richard Webb.

*Joins Kate in having a hurting head*

Napoleon Logsdon was still alive in 1891. RichardWebb (1891) was a cabinet maker like Napoleon, so was he using an assumed name. Do their ages match? I found a Richard Webb cabinet maker in 1881 whose age was two or three years adrift, but maybe he is a red herring?

*downs Panadol*

*goes to ballet class* lol

I don't know how old Elizabeth's father was because I just got his name from her marriage certificate.

Right, one step at a time.....I'm hoping there's just a wierd mistake, but it's easier to write it down.

1881; 2 Hope St Bethnal Green:

Napoleon Logsdon m 25 cabinet maker b St Geo in the East
Elizabeth Logsdon wife m 25 b Shoreditch
Frederick Logsdon son 5 b Spitalfields
Elizabeth Logsdon dau 2 b Hackney
David Logsdon son 1 b Hackney

On the same page is what is presumably Elizabeth Logsdon nee Webb's family, dad Richard 52 furniture packer b Shoreditch and mum Rebecca 50 paper box maker b St George Surrey plus several children aged 22 down to 12. The 22 year old is Richard Webb cabinet maker b Shoreditch, who I thought was Elizabeth's husband on the next census. I doubt she will turn out to be married to her own brother, so here goes.............

1891: 29 Regent Row, Shoreditch

Richard Webb head m 35 cabinet maker b Whitechapel
Elizabeth Webb wife m 35 b Shoreditch
Frederick Webb son 14 cabinet maker's assistant b Shoreditch
Elizabeth Webb dau 12 b Hackney
David Webb son 10 b Hackney
Alice Webb dau 9 ditto
Arthur Webb son 7 ditto
Lilly Webb dau 4 ditto
George son 3 ditto
Eliza dau 1 ditto
Coralie Scriven mother widow 57 b France British Subject

Hooray, in 1901 things are back to normal!

Elizabeth Logsdon is a 46 year old widow and she has Arthur and George with her (as Logsdon) plus another two younger children.

I think probably Elizabeth's brother Richard was living in her house in 1891 and there was some confusion over who the head of house was: Richard or Napoleon?!!

Oh my goodness, I came back to this tonight (having been out all day with the parents) hoping someone had glanced at this. Mindblowing! I don't think it's all as confusing as it seems, but I'm going to print all this out to try to get my head round it.
Thank you

I have spent the evening going through all this, and I have to admit you have all got so much more out of this than I ever could. Tomorrow I have to take the parents home (to Essex) so won't be around.

Be back Sunday

Most likely death for Wm Scriven, 'husband' of Coralie (I have to call her that as I have trouble with spelling Whilhelmina!)

Name: William Scriven
Estimated birth year: abt 1833
Year of Registration: 1883
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 50
District: West Ham
County: Essex, Greater London
Volume: 4a
Page: 5

This is where my thought process went next....I looked for William on earlier censuses to see if he was previously married......couldn't see him easily in 1871, but in 1861 there's a William right age b Surry Southwark but living in Birmingham with wife Caroline. I don't know if that is the right man, but thought I'd look for a death for Caroline, half expecting either not to find one or to find one too late (ie after he was living with Coralie)........but I stopped short with the looking for Caroline death when I saw this one.....

Name: Caroline Williamina R Scriven
Estimated birth year: abt 1837
Year of Registration: 1907
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 70
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 217

That could be William's wife, but if I didn't know that Coralie had lived to 1911 I would be thinking this death was hers!! *another headache!!*

Well, there is a Caroline Scriven in West Ham in 1901, but she is consistently b 1832 and when she married (1859 to Alfred Scriven) had no middle names, so make of that what you will!

Where is Coralie's death? Ellen A Wright died in West Ham by the look of it - I forget the date now (1930s?), but you would think her mother would have died in that area too. The various Logsdon men died in other parts of London by the look of it, so no one moved very far.

Forget that last post as that 1907 death I think is for this lady:

Marriages Sep 1858

McCoy John Greenwich 1d 805
Prindible Ellen Greenwich 1d 805
Sargent Priscilla Greenwich 1d 805
Scriven Edward Greenwich 1d 805 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Sutherland Caroline Williamina Rose Greenwich 1d 805 <<<<<<<<<

So, a complete red herring.

I still can't find Wm Scriven in 1871.