Who Do You Think You Are - Josh Widdicombe 12th Oct
 

At 9 p.m. on BBC1

They didn’t mention it but I noticed on the first scroll they showed Josh that his ancestor was William Paget. The Paget’s were Marquesses of Anglesey and owned much of the land in Burton

What a pedigree! It must have been information overload.

It was interesting but really, it was a history lesson. Riveting if these are your ancestors but for the rest of us, well,.....I already knew all this, lol.

OC

Episode synopsis:

Josh Widdicombe was born in London, but grew up on Dartmoor in Devon. He went to visit his parents' who still live in Devon, and asked them whether it was true that his family was connected with Barings Bank. His father said that the connection was supposedly with the family of his grandmother (Josh's great-grandmother), Mary Irene Baring-Gould, known as Irene, who married Edmund Hannaford Widdicombe on the 27th April 1921. Josh remembered Irene, who lived to the age of 96. The marriage certificate showed that Irene's father was Arthur Baring-Gould, a clerk in holy orders. There was a report of his funeral in a parish magazine.
Josh went to Lewtrenchard Manor in Devon, where the Baring-Gould family lived, and met an historian who confirmed the connection to Barings Bank - Josh's 5xg-grandfather Charles Baring was a co-founder of the bank with his two elder brothers, John and Francis Baring. Josh was shown a picture painted in 1806 of John and Franci, but Charles was not in it. He was also shown a memo written by Francis in 1805 which said that Charles had made some bad and poorly judged deals and was being cut off from the bank.

The historian then showed Josh that his family tree went back to his 10xg-grandfather Henry Rich, the first Earl of Holland and his wife Isabel Cope. Josh went to Holland Park in West London, where Henry and Isabel lived, and he met an historian who showed him a picture of Holland House as it used to be, plus portraits of Henry and Isabel. Isabel's father was Walter Cope. Henry and Isabel had eight children. Henry was a member of the Privy Council of King Charles I, which used to meet at Hampton Court, so Josh went to Hampton Court, where he was shown a 1640 listing of the Privy Council which stated that Henry was "Groom of the Stool" to Charles I. Josh then went to the City of London where he met another historian, who told him that in the English Civil War, Henry was captured after losing the Battle of Surbiton, and was convicted of high treason and sentenced to death. Josh was shown news pamphlets from the time, one of which described Henry's execution and said that he made a speech to the crowd which said that he was well-bred and came from an ancient and honourable family.

Josh then went to Henley on Thames to meet an historian at St Nicholas' Church there, who showed him the memorial to his 13xg-grandparents Sir Francis Knollys, treasurer of the household of Queen Elizabeth I, and his wife Katherine Carey. Although Francis is buried there, Josh was told that Katherine was buried at Westminster Abbey and that her funeral was paid for by Elizabeth I. Katherine was Elizabeth's chief Lady of the Bedchamber. Francis and Katherine had 15 or 16 children, depicted around the Henley tomb, and Lettice Knollys, Josh's 12xg-grandmother, was depicted with a crown and red robes, because she was also a lady in waiting to Elizabeth.

Josh went to Greys Court near Henley, the seat of the Knollys family, and was shown a portrait of Lettice, who married Walter Devereux, the Earl of Essex. He then went to Kenilworth Court, the home of Robert Dudley, the first Earl of Leicester, who was Lettice's second husband. Because Dudley was a favourite of Elizabeth, she banned Lettice from her court for marrying him. Josh then went to Westminster Abbey to see Katherine's memorial, which said that Katherine's parents were William Carey and Mary Boleyn, the sister of Anne Boleyn, making Katherine cousin to Elizabeth. Josh then went to Hever Castle in Kent, where Mary Boleyn grew up, and met an historian who showed him a portrait of Mary and told him that Mary had an affair with King Henry VIII and that some historians believe that Katherine was Henry VIII's biological daughter. The historian then showed Josh his family tree back from Mary Boleyn to King Edward I, his 23xg-grandfather, and Marguerite of France, daughter of King Philip III of France.

I agree. Though Josh didn't seem to know much about these people! I almost expected him to be surprised when he heard about the fate of Charles I!

I always thought that the name Lettice was pronounced like lettuce, not how they all pronounced it in the programme. Chambers Dictionary backs me up. But apparently Lettice Knollys was the first of that name, so I guess the pronunciation changed after her time.

I wonder whether Josh had seen, or even heard of, the film, "The Other Boleyn Girl", about Mary?!

Anyway, I do find this kind of episode pretty boring, when they show the celebrity a long family tree and jump straight back hundreds of years. I much prefer the ones where they look at more recent ancestors.

I thought the same. He didn’t seem to be aware of history

A lot of people are not! Watching TV quiz shows brings this home; many people including quite a few who seem quite educated, are pretty clueless.

I've not watched WDYTYA? for years. I actually quite enjoyed this episode, if I just blanked out the number of time Josh said "Oh Wow!!!".

I really enjoyed it. I love Josh. I think he was feigning a lack of knowledge in some areas for the sake of the programme. I loved his enthusiasm.

It was some tree, wasn't it?

At times he seemed shell-shocked.

Absolutely loved it. Very engaging personality & gripping revelations.Surely one of the series best.
Re some having no idea if their family history - I was one of them,& only decided to investigate when I was looking for something to practice my very rusty computer skills on when I got my first PC in 2010.The rest is history.

I really enjoyed this too. I felt that Josh was instructed to ask questions so that the programme makers could elaborate on the historical context for people with very little historical knowledge.

He did seem very shell-shocked. There were lovely minutes of humour, such as when he discovered his ancestor was Groom of the Stool.

I would like to have seen his parents' reaction when he told them what had been discovered!

He will never live it down on The Last Leg! They've already had him dressed as Henry VIII and ribbing him for being a republican! Now I've seen the episode, he did look genuinely impressed!

I do find it a bit irritating when celebs are (apparently) made to appear ignorant of basic history. I can't remember if they've had people where that wouldn't wash (as I said, I've not watched it for years, but the football was on in my house!).

I've just realised why I enjoyed it - no tears (crocodile or otherwise) from anyone or gross misunderstandings about the way people lived in the past or trying to put current values on historical events. I did notice they very much glossed over how the banking family made their wealth.

I always thought that the name Lettice was pronounced like lettuce,

So did I and I thought Knollys was pronounced exactly as written. I wondered if they were doing a Hyacinth Bucket by pronouncing Lettice the way they did!

I really enjoyed this episode. Of course the actual history wasn't a revelation (although I had to wonder, judging by his reaction when discussing it, if Josh had ever [I]heard[I] of the English Civil War!) but it was very enjoyable to see his connections being revealed one after the other. I loved his reactions as each new one unfolded.

only decided to investigate when I was looking for something to practice my very rusty computer skills on when I got my first PC in 2010.

It was researching my family that cured my fear of our first computer back in the early 2000s. Until I discovered what information was available online I was terrified of touching the wrong thing and breaking it. I got so caught up in what I was discovering that I forgot all about that!

Did they mention Sabine? Now, I would have been interested in him.

No, they didn't, but it looks like he was a bit distant to Mary I B-G who was Josh's great grandmother and who married in 1921. You have to go back to siblings born just after 1800 to work your way to the cousin relationship.

No, Phoenix, they didn't mention Sabine and like you, I thought that would be more interesting because the Baring Goulds were lesser known than royalty!

OC

Well, if they did mention it then I must have missed it (maybe Hungary scored?)

Also, the tree I looked at on Ancestry would have to be wrong as I just saw this on Sabine's Wikipedia:

"Josh Widdicombe claims ancestry from Sabine Baring-Gould despite misremembering "Onward, Christian Soldiers" as "Abide with Me", another Victorian hymn."

The reference for that is an episode of QI from series 17, and they are up to series 19 now, so I would guess that was before he filmed WDYTYA and so he didn't know any details of how he was related to the Barings then?

OK that makes sense, thanks. It suggests he had just assumed, having probably googled Baring-Gould, rather than doing research.

I've been pronouncing Lettice's names wrongly too. Incidentally, Boris has a daughter
named Lettice.
Felt a bit sorry for Josh's Mum - her side never got a look in.

I was waiting for someone to say Josh has the Tudor red hair so I could shout, That's from his mum!!

As I am deaf, can someone tell me how Lettice is pronounced please!

OC

I enjoyed it because I am interested in that period of history so was aware of Lettice being Elizabeth's cousin and marrying Dudley. When I saw that Josh was descended from Henry Rich, I googled to see if he was related to Richard Rich who was a key person in the time of Henry VIII and featured in A Man for All Seasons about Thomas more and of course he was. I do like Josh and found it interesting.
I also thought they pronounced Lettice wrong

I've heard it as "Lettuce" as as "Leteess".

Greys Court is a lovely place, I visited with my Mum a few years ago, and unlike a lot of posh homes it feels like a real home. The library was my favourite room of course. There's also a series of gardens and a wisteria walk.

Thanks Nell. I have a Lettice very far back, written variously as Letys and Lettys, so I just assumed that was the way it was pronounced. I suppose if it is a derivation of Leticia or Letitia, then Letteece is the correct pronunciation. I live and learn.

OC

I Googled last night and found this:

https://annfosterwriter.com/2018/04/25/lettice-knollys/

Thanks for that. Very interesting. :)

I would be fascinated to know how they know how a particular name was pronounced, given changes across not merely time but also place, and within society.

I have the surname Sworn in my tree, and a distant cousin pronounces it as it is written. But in the 1700s it was written Sorn. So did some swanky ancestor introduce a silent W as in sword? Or was an absent W taken for granted?

And does anyone know how to pronounce Dewnes? The Latin form is Dyonisia and it evolves into Dennis or Denise.

I recently transcribed the 1638 will of Dewens Pawlin of Cornwall for Cornwall OPC. The person who requested it had a long discussion with a few of us about the testatrix's name. There are a fair few in Cornwall with the variant spellings Dewns, Dewens, Dewance, Dewins and Dewans.

Just watched it on iPlayer, and enjoyed it too. Yes, I knew a lot of the history, but that didn’t spoil it. I thought he was delightful (despite all the ‘Wows’ :) ) and I suspect he did know quite a bit of the Henry VIII period, and maybe about Elizabeth I, but not in more detail. Greys Court is quite close by, and been there two or three times - the gardens are lovely.
Eat your heart out Danny Dyer! :d

Pretty sure my Lettice was earlier than that article but I will have to check.

OC

I was just having a look at the Barings, and one thing they didn't mention was that Francis Baring, Charles's brother was the 4x Great Grandfather of Diana Spencer. Josh would have been her 6th cousin once removed.

I was able to watch this episode on YouTube and really enjoyed it. I don't know Josh Widdicombe - I thought he seemed quite stunned with some of the revelations.

It was particularly interesting to me because of the Greys Court connection. I used to pass by there every day on my way to school. As far as I remember, Knollys was always pronounced with the 'y' sounding and there is a street (Great Knollys Street) presumably named after the family in Reading. It was also interesting to see St. Nicholas Church as some family relations were baptised there in the 1800s.

Nell, the first thing I thought of when I read Greys Court was the wisteria; it's beautiful when it's in flower.

I would be fascinated to know how they know how a particular name was pronounced, given changes across not merely time but also place, and within society.


I think sometimes you can deduce how your ancestors spoke and pronounced words by the way names were written in the records. During the 17th and early 18th centuries we found quite a few girls baptised with the name "Easter" in OH's tree. It was when Esther began appearing in the later records for same family that we realised that Easter was probably how they pronounced it, at least in Leicestershire at that time. In my own tree I have lots of 19th century Henrys in my London families, some of whom appear in the census as "Enery".You can just hear it being said in a Cockney accent! It made me laugh and reminded me of "Enery Cooper".

I once attended a lecture where I did not recognise my own surname as it was spelled with an O rather than an H :D

Yes that’s right Jennie - I worked there for a while.

I suddenly thought as I was dropping off to sleep :rolleyes: … about Amy Robsart and the rumours about her death which didn’t put Lettice off marrying Robert Dudley…. So This morning I read the Wilkpedia article on her…. After Dudley died she married Sir Christopher Blount. The Blount family own Mapledurham House which I’m sure you also know of…. A later Blount married into the Spencer family which would make Josh a (remote) cousin of Diana - Princess of Wales.

I was expecting a reference to Amy Robsart when they were at Kenilworth talking about Dudley's efforts to persuade Elizabeth to marry him. As far as I can remember I don't think she was mentioned was she, or, indeed, the fact that Dudley had been married at all before he married Lettice?

I watched it last night and thought it was good, he's a nice chap isn't he.

I think he was surprised at a lot of it in terms of how it related to his family. a lot of history seems to be taught as mere timelines, names, battles, beheadings and Kings/Queens.

Other than Danny Dyer didn't Boris Johnson have a lot of Royal connections here and in France and Germany?