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Friday challenge?
I've been looking at this for too long! I feel the answer is there, but it's just not revealing itself to me.
Basically, I want to know the maiden name of the 'wife' here: 1911 Census - 241 Icknield Port Rd, Birmingham Arthur James Lowe head m 32 chimney sweep b Birmingham Rose Lowe wife m 29 b Birmingham, m 13 years, children 2, none dec'd Rose Lowe dau 10 school b Birmingham Harry Lowe son 12 school b Birmingham Ivy Chatterley visitor 5 school b Birmingham The problem is, all my research indicates that '13 years' married relates to the marriage of Arthur James Low to Alice Hollyoake in 1897. They seem to have had two children: LOWE, ARTHUR WILLIAM HOLLYOAKE GRO Reference: 1897 D Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 97 LOWE, WILLIAM THOMAS HOLLYOAKE GRO Reference: 1899 J Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 82 These two boys are together in the workhouse (? some institution) in 1911. I can't find them or either parent in 1901. I don't need to know about the children or Alice particularly- I was only looking to see if there were any clues about Rose at this date. So, it seems that Rose is not married to Arthur and I suppose the two children with them in 1911 are more likely to be hers, either illegitimate or born in a previous marriage. Arthur is still alive in 1939 (born 14 Jun 1879 which matches the birth date on his baptism), but that doesn't seem to be any help as his wife's first name is just 'L'. (probably Louisa Harrison m 1927). No probate for Arthur following his death in 1941. |
Thoughts!
Are Rose and Alice the same person? If Alice is a different person, where is she or what happened to her? |
Was Arthur James Lowe the father of Rose and Harry? Probably not, so whose then?
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Here is a matching family for Rose and the children in 1901 (except Rose sr is a couple of years older than she would be if 1911 is correct):
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...nSearchResults but it's the first one I looked at from my search results, so had better check the rest in case there is more than one. |
Didn't find any other family which fitted.
Henry George Chadwick born Jul-Sep 1898 Birmingham MMN Spencer Rose Lilian Chadwick birth Oct-Dec 1900 Birmingham MMN Spencer |
George Chadwick married Rose Spencer Apr-Jun 1898 Birmingham.
But - bother! Here is the Chadwick family in 1911: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...=successSource and Rose L Chadwick died in 1901 age 1. So, back to the drawing board... |
There are two Ivy Chatterleys born in 1906 in Birmingham, one with parents Ernest Chatterley and Maria nee Walton, and one with parents Arthur Bell Chatterley and May Edith nee Young (I thought, but maybe not! Well, at least her MMN was Young). I found the one with MMN Walton on the 1911 census, with her parents and siblings, so the one with the Lowes should be the MMN Young one - unless the other one was in two places at once, which can happen on the censuses.
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Actually, I don't think Arthur and May Edith were the parents of that Ivy, having found them in 1911, so another Chatterley / Young couple. I was just wondering whether one of Ivy's parents could be a relative of Rose's.
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lol Kate! That is the can of worms you have opened!! I was trying not to mention it as it could lead to the longest post ever!!
You are right that Arthur Bell Chatterley and his wife are not the parents of the Ivy who is with the Lowe family in 1911. This Ivy (Ivy Ellen) is the daughter of Samuel Frederick Chatterley who is the brother of Arthur Bell Chatterley. Samuel's common law wife was Kate Young. They had four children together 1904-1912 and after that there is a nightmare of complicated relationships I'm trying to work out! As Kate Young (Samuel's 'wife') and May Edith (Arthur's wife) don't seem to be closely related, I was hoping Rose might be Kate's sister. In 1911 Kate Young (calling herself Chatterley) is in the workhouse with two of her three children, Frederick (b 1904) and Henry Vincent (b 1910) and her middle child, Ivy, is with the Lowe's. Samuel is nowhere to be seen. It would be very useful indeed if I could find him. Samuel's details are (in case you would rather look for him in 1911): Samuel Frederick Chatterley birth reg Q1 1874 Daventry (b Weedon Northants) 1881 with parents 1891 not found 1901 Army barracks (in Hampshire? I forget), says born Birmingham, but I'm sure it's him - Birmingham is where he was brought up. His army record is on FMP which shows he signed up in 1893 and was discharged in 1905) 1911 no sign. I have checked the addresses given on his children's baptisms in 1904, 06 and 1910. Nothing to help. |
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I don't think Rose and Alice are the same person, mainly because Alice seems to have had two sons before 1901, but Rose says she has had two children who would appear to be Harry and Rose jr. I don't know what happened to Alice. I can't find her in 1901 or 1911. I've just realised I don't know if her sons were baptised, so I could look for that in case the address for the second one is useful in 1901. |
St David's Birmingham - 29 Dec 1897 Arthur William Lowe son of Arthur James and Alice Lowe 22 Ct 7 Ho Barford St Hawker
St David's Birmingham - 31 May 1899 Willam Thomas Lowe (born 4 Apr 1899) son of ditto same address and occ |
At 15 Canal St Birmingham in 1901 there is the household of Joseph Ray, hawker.
It includes his daughter Rose, aged 20, press worker and grandchildren Harry aged 3 and Rose aged 0. No guarantee that Rose is the mother of the children, of course. |
It may be a coincidence, but a Rose Elizabeth Ray marries a William T Lowe in 1918.
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Henry Ray born 1897 Birmingham and Rose Elizabeth Ray born 1900 Birmingham both have - for MMN on the GRO site, so it looks quite likely that Rose could be their mother.
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Though there is a baptism for Rose Elizabeth Ray 14 May 1900 St Nicolas, Birmingham, parents John Henry Ray and Rose Ray (according to FamilySearch). I don't see one for Harry, but FamilySearch is suggesting that he is with a Reynolds family in 1911. Off to check it out...
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Yes, this is Harry Ray in 1911:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...=successSource Nephew of Agnes who was in that 1901 family. |
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Oooh, I was just going to say that about the birth registrations!
Yes, it does look possible.... |
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Rose b 26 April 1900, William b 4 April 1899
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Rose Ray senr married John Henry Hall in 1902.
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So, another probable dead end - I had hoped there might be an obvious link between Kate Chatterley/Young and Rose Lowe as Kate's child was staying there rather than being in the workhouse.
Any sign of Samuel Chatterley in 1911?!! |
What occupation did Samuel give on his children's baptisms?
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Labourer. Sorry!
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Lol!
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Just re-posting this first part here to save reading back and then I am continuing with the can of worms underneath in case it's terrible weather where you are too and you need an excuse to stay inside! (Phoenix, if you read this, the longest paragraph below does mention the chance of Samuel being an engine fitter in 1914 if he is using an alias!). Sorry about the continuous switching between past and present tenses!
Looking for Samuel Chatterley in 1911. These are some of his details: Samuel Frederick Chatterley birth reg Q1 1874 Daventry (b Weedon Northants) 1881 with parents 1891 not found 1901 Army barracks (in Hampshire? I forget), says born Birmingham, but I'm sure it's him - Birmingham is where he was brought up. His army record is on FMP which shows he signed up in 1893 and was discharged in 1905) 1911 no sign. I have checked the addresses given on his children's baptisms in 1904, 06 and 1910. Nothing to help. I believe Samuel Chatterley and Kate Young moved to Exeter by 1912. A child was born there (Emily Chatterley) but she only lived one hour and was buried in Exeter Cemetery 18 Jul 1912 (newspaper report about cemetery burials). I think the parents are Sam and Kate because: 1) the birth reg is Chatterley mmn Young and they are not the 'other' Chatterley/Young family as they are still in Birmingham having more children. 2) In 1913 and 1914 Sam and Kate's son Henry Vincent Chatterley (b 1910 in Birmingham) was registered at a school in Exeter. The family were living in Preston St Exeter which was a poor area. Samuel and Kate's other children (Frederick 1904 and Ivy 1906) don't seem to have come to Exeter. The only issue with Henry's school records is that his father is listed as Henry Chatterley, not Samuel. Next comes a newspaper report- Taunton Courier, and Western Advertiser 09 September 1914 It's too long to type it all here but a couple called Henry and Kathleen Chatterley, no fixed abode, were brought up at the Taunton County Police Court charged with assaulting two men in Taunton on 7 Sept 1914. The details of the assault suggest Kathleen was at least as aggressive as her 'husband' and less remorseful after they were arrested, though she was discharged and he was fined in the end. The article states "P.S. Sweet said defendants had been in the town about three months. They had two children, one a baby and the other four years" Now I hit the mystery! I'm pretty sure the four-year-old child above is Henry Vincent Chatterley. He definitely lived in the same house as these 'parents' during the 1920s and early 1930s in Taunton, as none of them were strangers to the courts so there are plenty of newspaper articles about them giving addresses. After 1914 the father Henry (is he Samuel?) is generally called John Henry Chatterley. His army papers for WW1 survive. They state he is not married but his nok and dependent is Kathleen Rafferty (or Flatterly but not Young!). He lists his children with her, but the list doesn't include Henry Vincent Chatterley (the only child who was born in Birmingham with mmn Young - so, not Kathleen Rafferty's child or not John Henry's child or both?!). There are several birth registrations for Chatterley with mmn Rafferty the first being Rosie Chatterley registered Q1 1914 in Exeter (all others in Taunton) and who is presumably the baby in the newspaper report. Rosie was baptised in Exeter in Feb 1914 from a house in the same street as is mentioned in Henry Vincent Chatterley's school record. Rosie's parents are recorded as John Henry (engine fitter) and Kathleen Chatterley. The last entry in the school register for Henry Vincent Chatterley says 'left the city' in 1914. Probably between 1920 and 1922 John Henry and Kathleen split up. Henry Vincent C probably stayed with Kathleen as he uses her address in court a couple of times in the early 1930s. Kathleen had several more children registered as Chatterley but the mmn is also Chatterley. Eventually she married Frederick Hodge in Taunton in 1928 (I guess it's likely he is the father of the post-1921 children as in the mid 1920s he and Kathleen were of the same abode in a court case) and had three more children Hodge mmn Chatterley, the last in 1933. Many of these children are in the Hodge household in 1939 but not Henry Vincent who may have been in the army. John Henry Chatterley seems to have died in Bristol in 1936. He is not the birth reg in 1877 as that JHC had a different life and died after WW2. Samuel C was born in 1874 and John Henry supposedly in about 1877. From their army records they were both the same height (5'6.5"), complexion (fresh) and eye colour (brown), but none of those are remarkable. Their hair colour is different, but John Henry was 41 and grey when his particulars were taken. There's about 25 years between the signatures on the army records and they are not especially similar! So, is Samuel Frederick also John Henry? They are not the same age and JH doesn't acknowledge Henry Vincent as his son though he seems to have brought him up. Also are Kate Young and Kathleen Rafferty the same person? I have Kathleen's supposed dob from the 1939 Register (24 Feb 1889). Kate Young was recorded as 25 in 1911 (so b 1885/6). I don't feel they are one and the same, but could be. I could get Kathleen's marriage cert to Frederick Hodge to see if that helps, but it's a bit of a Schrodinger's cat thing where I feel if I get the cert I will be disappointed! Samuel Frederick was born and did stuff up to 1912. John Henry doesn't seem to exist until 1912. Neither of them had an official marriage. Henry Vincent also never married. If it wasn't for him I wouldn't have any reason to believe the two couples, Sam and Kate and John Henry and Kathleen, had anything to do with each other. I can't find Kathleen Rafferty before 1912 and can't establish which Young Kate Chatterley is before 1911. Your thoughts.... |
Grrrr….
I found the burial record card for Emily Chatterley at Higher Cemetery Exeter. It doesn't give an address or anything else about her family. Her details are bur 18 Jul 1912 from St Matthews Parish. Interment number 34071 Section A Division 216 Number 29. There is an observations box which states See 28990. This is a pdf document with no way to search it, and I don't know what name that entry might be under, except that it's not Chatterley! Across three cemeteries there are 100,000 burials and this Higher Cemetery is the biggest of the three. Very frustrating!! I suppose I could try Young and Rafferty etc.... |
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When Samuel signed up, he had four scars on the forehead.
I note his brother Arthur mentions (amongst others)two brothers as next of kin: Ernest and Joseph. Does this suggest that Samuel had moved on by that date? (Presumably in WW1) |
So, I'm looking for burial 28990
I have found: Arthur Sharp 28981 Frank Swain 28982 Francis E Turner 28983 Mary A Ball 28985 Ann Parsons 28986 Elizabeth Collins 28988 Mary Ann Swash 28989 (from cross referencing the GRO index with the burial entries. I'm obviously almost in the right spot, but have to do something to eat now!) |
Poor little John Chatterley: trying to get a potato from the oven and his flannelette clothing catching fire. The day before the Armistice. Do you suppose that that contributed to his parents splitting up?
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Of course I don't see an obvious birth reg for Alfred or Albert James Udy. There is an Alfred Lewis Udy birth in Bodmin district in 1901, but there is a likely death for him in 1955.
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The depth for Emily Chatterley was also five feet. Would they normally put a Catholic with a C of E? Samuel and Kate baptised their Birmingham children C of E, but I wondered if Kathleen Rafferty (who should have nothing to do with Emily!) might have been RC. Quote:
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There's an illegitimate John Udy reg birth Q3 1901 Exeter who I can't see anywhere else, but I don't want it to be him really.
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I have a horrid feeling that he might be the son of Elizabeth Ann Udy, who was deaf and dumb from birth.
I can't see that the Udys are other than Cornish incomers. Unless there was a soldier's family and the mother simply called herself by her common law husband's name. |
I think I'm just going to have to put the name Udy on the back burner in case it crops up later. Probably no connection, I suppose!
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Oooh!! I made a mistake!
Somewhere in the dim and distant past I was looking at Arthur Bell Chatterley and his wife, May Edith Young (known as Edith). I think I looked at the wrong family on the pre-marriage census records for Edith and therefore found a family with no sister called Kate. Now I've done that again and this time (hopefully) have the right family and there is Kate (called Kitty, which I think was the name on one of her children's baptisms). https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...nSearchResults The above 1891 census has (May) Edith Young aged 14 b West Brom which is correct for Edith Chatterley and Kitty aged 5 b Birmingham which fits with Kate Chatterley on the 1911 census. Birth registrations: YOUNG, MAY EDITH TINSLEY GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 871 YOUNG, KITTY TINSLEY GRO Reference: 1886 M Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 171 I can't see a bap for Kitty in Birmingham, but the siblings born in West Brom are all baptised. |
I've just found a tree on Ancestry that has the eldest child of Samuel Frederick Chatterley and Kate Young on it - Frederick Chatterley b 1904. (the tree has Frederick born in 1882 despite having his father born in 1874, but I'm sure the details below are correct as I'd already worked out the spouse and 1939 register etc before I found the tree.)
The tree has a copy of a 1937 marriage cert for Frederick which gives his father's name as Samuel Chatterley a commissionaire (not dec'd - the bride's father is noted as dec'd, so it would seem the Q was asked). Frederick and his bride both give the same address - a hotel in Westcliff-on-Sea - and Frederick is an under chef. It's tempting to think he was living in as a member of staff - in which case is there any significance that his father's job could also be in a hotel? Frederick Chatterley was perhaps not the most reliable person - he spent a lot of his life in jail. The tree owner has one of his occupations down as 'criminal'! The following year he was sentenced to a few months in jail for petty theft in Southend. He pleaded with the judge to be allowed to have Christmas at home because 1) his wife was pregnant and 2) he had spent 14 of the previous 16 Christmases inside. Of course the occupations - especially for Samuel - could well be made up. John Henry was dead by 1937, but only by a year or so. I really need to know who John Henry is, if he isn't Samuel! If they are different people then I don't need to know about Samuel and his children etc because I'm looking at these families trying to work out who is my contact's grandfather. My contact is definitely related to John Henry Chatterley or Kathleen Rafferty - one of their immediate male relations is my contact's grandfather. However, the best candidate so far is a relative of Samuel! There are candidates in JHC's descendants, but though, like Samuel's relative, some were living in the right place at the right time they are pushing the boundaries for being too young to fit the bill. The next can of worms will be trying to sort out Kathleen Rafferty's immediate male relatives as she was never born! *sigh* |
How long is it until the 1921 census comes out?!! Hopefully John Henry is either at home or in prison: at least traceable.
Remind me: do we have proof that Samuel and Kate moved to Exeter? The army records for all the Chatterleys are all very similar: men who were fond of drinking, gambling, fighting, and did not take well to regimentation. Were the children in Exeter in and out of the workhouse? A settlement examination might provide some clues. |
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