Help wanted to trace ancestors walker family Upholland
 

Hi , I am looking for any history of the Richard Walker , named as father on birth of cisely Walker , 1803 st Thomas Upholland , does anyone know where he was born ? Thanks

First of all it's a good idea to record Cicily's siblings, in order to hopefully find the correct marriage for Richard. These are from Lancs OPC:

Baptism: 29 Apr 1798 St Thomas, Upholland, Lancashire, England
Mary Walker - Daughter of Richard Walker
Abode: UpHolland
Occupation: Collier
Register: Baptisms 1789 - 1812, Page 27, Entry 14
Source: LDS Film 1657546

Baptism: 11 May 1800 St Thomas, Upholland, Lancashire, England
Betty Walker - Daughter of Richard Walker
Abode: UpHolland
Occupation: Collier
Register: Baptisms 1789 - 1812, Page 33, Entry 9
Source: LDS Film 1657546

Baptism: 6 Jan 1803 St Thomas, Upholland, Lancashire, England
Cisely Walker - Daughter of Richard Walker
Abode: UpHolland
Occupation: Collier
Register: Baptisms 1789 - 1812, Page 40, Entry 33
Source: LDS Film 1657546

Burial: 2 Feb 1803 St Thomas the Martyr, Up Holland, Lancashire, England
Cicily Walker - Daughter of Richard Walker
Abode: Upholland
Register: Burials 1790 - 1812, Page 1, Entry 17
Source: LDS Film 1657546

Baptism: 25 Mar 1804 St Thomas, Upholland, Lancashire, England
Cecily Walker - Daughter of Richard Walker
Abode: UpHolland
Occupation: Collier
Register: Baptisms 1789 - 1812, Page 45, Entry 24
Source: LDS Film 1657546

This could be his marriage:

Marriage: 31 Oct 1797 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Richard Walker - (X), Upholland
Ellen Gaskell - (X), Upholland
Witness: Wm. Bancks; Henry Fishwick, (X)
Married by Banns by: John Fawel
Register: Marriages 1790 - 1803, Page 188, Entry 752
Source: LDS Film 1885689

Next thought is, less than ten years worth of children after the marriage. Was that because Richard's wife was older, or because she (or Richard) died, or because they moved to a different parish or had come from a different parish in 1798 (making that 1797 marriage less likely)?

Also, you said "1803 birth" note that 1803 was the year the child was baptised, not necessarily when they were born. The Cecily baptised in 1803 died in 1803, so your Cecily was baptised in 1804.

If that 1797 marriage is the right one, then the family did move.

Baptism: 22 Dec 1806 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Ellen Walker - fifth Daur. of Richard Walker & Ellen (formerly Gaskell)
Born: 26 Nov
Abode: Haigh
Occupation: Miner
Mother's Parents: Henry & Mary Gaskell
Register: Baptisms 1799 - 1812, Page 224
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

Most helpful of the vicar to record maiden name, mother's parents and "fifth daughter" - that never happens in my tree! lol

I don't know if this is the same Ellen (jr)

Burial: 21 Nov 1813 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Ellen Walker - Daughter of Richard Walker
Age: 7
Abode: Standishgate
Cause of Death: Smalpox
Buried by: T.Pigot
Register: Burials 1813 - 1818, Page 55, Entry 438
Source: LDS Film 1885700

The issue is when researching common names is that obviously there may be many possible entries that fit the bill, so you may have to research other people within the potential families to see if anything helps you.

I presume this is the correct bap for Ellen Gaskell though, as she has the correct parents, as recorded by the vicar at the 1806 baptism.

Baptism: 6 Sep 1778 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Ellen Gaskell - Daughter of Henry Gaskell & Mary
Abode: Pemberton
Register: Baptisms 1754 - 1778, Page 236
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

There is an Ellen Walker of the right age b Upholland on the 1841 and 1851 census, but I think her husband was William Walker not Richard as the baptism of her daughter Sarah (living with her in 1851) seems to confirm this.

I think this is the right Ellen Walker:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...nSearchResults

The entry reads "Ellen wife of Richard Walker, abode Blackrod, buried Dec 6th 1840, found dead"

That entry rather suggests Richard was living when Ellen died.

Wow , great work , yes potentially the marriage looks a possible one , and places like Pemberton where potentially Ellen was born is only a few miles away and so is Blackrod , as there was a lot of work around these area and again isn't too far away . Have you any idea where Richard was born ? it could be in the surrounding areas if not Upholland ? I I found a Richard walker on the 1841 census in Blackrod age 65 Looks like he was on his own as it doesn't mention anyone else with him in Goodmans Fold Blackrod , Yes the. First cisely Walker may have died and then she had another baby the following year and named her Cisely Thanks for your help Regards Qwackers

No, because I can't find a burial for him which should show his approx. age at death and he doesn't seem to be showing up on the 1841 or 1851 census. EDIT - but I didn't see the 65 year old, so will try and find him now. You should have posted a link or the ref to his entry!!


There don't appear to be any baptisms of a Richard Walker in Upholland or Wigan at the right time, but there are around plenty to choose from if he was born somewhere else in Lancashire.

lol Ancestry helpfully transcribed that Richard as Ruther!

So, if that's the right Richard he was born in Lancashire possibly approx 1770-1775. There are around a dozen baptisms in Lancashire for a Richard Walker around those dates.

Her burial details are in post #2.

We need to find this man in 1851 to see if it looks like the same man and to pick up his birthplace:

WALKER, RICHARD aged 82
GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 62

Here he is on FMP:

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/reco...1%2f0001632839

and Ancestry (don't know which you have)

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...nSearchResults

So, occ is wrong, but still could be him as I'm sure it's the same man as you found in 1841 as he's in the same place. So, born in Standish which is three miles or so from Wigan and possibly about 1778/9ish.

There are some baptisms around the correct years in Standish for the children of James and Ellen Walker, but no Richard that I can see at the moment. Bap dates and names are:

15 Mar 1772 Ann

17 Mar 1776 Alice

10 Oct 1779 Ellen

May 1784 Jane

Hi , thanks Merry , I'm afraid I'm not to savvy when it comes to posting links etc .thanks qwackers

hi ,Merry , just querying post 5 birth of ellen gaskell 1778 all saints Wigan . Daughter of henry and Mary abode pemberton christened all saints wigan . as on their marriage certificate it says abode Upholland , for both. could ellen not have been born in upholland as there are lots of births that could be possibilities . ? thanks

I did find a birth for a mary ellen ,gaskell in 1876 upholland parents henry and Mary . if they are the same parents ,would they have to children with the name ellen or was it not a problem . if they are the same parents thanks

She could have been born anywhere, but obviously more likely than not to have been born close-ish to where she lived later.

You need to make a list of the possible baptisms and then see how many you can eliminate.

I presume you have said the wrong year in your last post (1876??). It's unusual for a couple to name two childen the same if the first one hadn't died, but it does happen rarely. I have 10,000 on my tree and only one case of that happening that I'm aware of.

EDIT - I just realised you meant one was Ellen and one Mary Ellen. Again, unusual, but possible. (Assuming they were not almost a century apart!)

Remember Ellen's burial says she was 62 at the end of 1840.

I just searched for the Mary Ellen Gaskell you mentioned and saw the baptism was 1876 (as you said) so clearly not the same family as she was born in the wrong century!

Please would you post these other possible entries from Upholland. Thanks.

there is a ellen Gaskell ,born april 1769 father joseph , ellen gaskell 1772 april father william ashurst , Mother Mary ? gaskell Abode pemberton . Mother from upholland child illegitimate

But her parents need to be Henry and Mary (see post #3), that's why I chose the Wigan entry. So the two you have found have the wrong parents and are probably too old (from the age at burial).

hi ,I also have just had a message from a walker ancestor in california, who has sent me a copy of a court Paper she has found , 25 th of July 1806 Lancashire order books records and petitions .Stating that Richard walker of haigh is reputed to be the father of Joseph male bastard child to Ann gaskell of billinge , and then a sum to be paid and then a weekly payment . she seems to think this is our Richard Walker and is also looking into the possibilitiy of Ann being the sister of Ellen Gaskell . It would be a reason they didn't stay in upholland and moved . Billinge isn't too far from upholland .

Oooh dear!

Do we know that ,the burial of ellen walker is for definite . I am trying to understand why they would have burials at wigan when they live in Haigh , Unless they had a plot there , as haigh i'd just over four miles away and it has its own church . Also could i ask could Richard walker be older perhaps in his thirties whe he got married ?

i have found two anns at the moment , father henry one born 1784 one born 1789 there are a couple more i will look at them tommorow .

If you have found some more, maybe you could post them here so we can take a look and see if any can be eliminated. We do know the hisband of that Ellen was called Richard.

Richard was most likely over 21 at the marriage, but other than that he could have been any age. Do you not like the look of the one on the census then? If you don't think that Richard is the one, then the Ellen burial probably isn't the one either, as that suggests her husband was still living.

Hi ,Yes I was always searching after 1770 for richard, But I found a Richard Thomas Walker baptised 21 july 1767 Born 27th dec 1766 father william and Mary Farmer . upholland and there are lots of walkers in upholland .Now that would make him around 30/31 , but Ellen could have been younger . so the burial could be right . that's my thoughts . And then we have got this latest scenario, where he could be the father of this Joseph Gaskell , mother ann gaskell . who is from that area , so i'm just looking at a bigger picture .

hi that should have been mary ,occupation farmer

You're a century out!

Name: Richard Thomas Walker
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 21 Jul 1867
Baptism Place: UpHolland , Lancashire, England
Father: William Walker
Mother: Mary
FHL Film Number: 1657546
Reference ID: item 5 p 65

you know i could have sworn i checked the 1700s but , your right lol

Hi ,merry , i'm trying to establish Richard walkers Death , so we can see at least how old he was .I think he was in Blackrod In 1841 as there is a richard walker in goodmans fold on the blackrod census . so he was still alive then presuming it is him . I then look at burials , I couldn't see any for him after that time around the wigan , Blackrod area . There are only two , that stand out more than others on the burials on Family search . there is one for 1843 in Wigan ,no mention of age , and in 1852 a death in Bolton , which blackrod could have come under but no mention of age on the site . The others are all liverpools and places further away . So it's hobsons at the moment . I don't know if ancestry will give the age of death ? anyway it's worth trying to find that out otherwise I'm stuck looking for him .As you said walker is a common name . So it makes even harder . Let me know anyway .thanks

Ther is also death in 1861 in Wigan . can't find it in the chrich indexes , but that would make him 81 /82 like you proposed .

hi ,i thought i'd search the wigan onlines to see if there was a birth around 1778/79 . there is a thomas walker , baptised 1780 to lanslet and Mary formerly Barton . wallgate Wigan . Just a thought that is name could be thomas richard . it's a long shot .

See posts #9-#14 re Richard Walker.

You say some of the death registration entries you have looked at don't give an age. You need to use the GRO site for death registrations before 1866 - the same site as for the pre-1911 mmn information for births:

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/#0

It's free.

will do later thanks

Hi ,I did find a richard Walker death 1861 age 82 In Hindley which is just outside of wigan . This could be him .How do i go from here , will his death certificate show his exact birth ?

The 1861 death registration is posted in #13 on this thread. Further info including hs place of birth from the census is in post #14.

No, his death certificate will not show his place of birth, exact or otherwise. That information was only required for death certificates from 1 April 1969 and even then, the place of birth will only be as accurate as the information given by the informant.

You need to read the webpages here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190216...es/indexbd.htm

There is information about what you can expect to find on England/Wales certificates and how you can interpret that information to help with your research.